Literally Every Single Question You've Ever Had About Hormonal Acne, Answered

hormonal acnehormonal acne

Let's not sugar-coat it. Hormonal acne is dumb.

And even though pimples and acne are normal, it's important to acknowledge the very real power they hold and the way they can affect how you feel about yourself.

Different to the cystic teenage acne many of us had in high school, hormonal acne can result in painful, inflamed adult acne flare ups on your chin, jawline, forehead and neck well into your 20s, 30s and beyond.

You can even get hormonal acne during menopause. It's a big, cruel kick in the tits.

To find out the causes of hormonal acne, how to get rid of hormonal acne and the best hormonal acne treatments, we asked a dermatologist everything there is to know about the damn thing. Here are all your questions, answered.

What Is Hormonal Acne?

According to Sydney-based specialist dermatologist Dr Burcu Kim, hormonal acne is acne that forms as a result of fluctuations in hormones.

It has nothing to do with your face being dirty or not having hygienic skin. Rather, factors like your menstrual cycle and age can mess with your hormones, which in turn, messes with your skin.

In other words - hormonal acne is 100 per cent not your fault, and often, it can't be avoided.

You can listen to Dr Kim's hormonal acne chat with Hannah and Jo on this episode of the Beauty IQ Uncensored podcast below!

Hormonal Acne Causes.

OK, but what is it about our hormones that causes hormonal acne?

"Hormone fluctuations usually lead to precursors of testosterone, which is a male hormone. Testosterone binds to receptors in our oil glands, causing excess oil production. This leads to bacteria, which then drives inflammation, and then, the formation of acne," Dr Kim said.

We also have more of these receptors around our jawline, the neck and the sides of our face, which explains why those are the most common spots for hormonal acne to set up camp.

Here's a breakdown of some of the other factors that cause our hormones to change, resulting in hormonal acne:

  • Genetics.

  • Extreme stress.

  • Menstrual cycle - "Typically, women may get a hormonal acne flare seven to 10 days before their menstrual cycle."

  • Diet and exercise, extreme weight loss or weight gain.

  • Starting and stopping the contraceptive pill.

  • Pregnancy.

  • Menopause.

  • Medical conditions that can cause a change in hormones, like polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS).

Hormonal Acne and Menopause.

So you stopped getting your period. Excellent, no more menstrual breakouts... right? Not quite.

"We know acne can flare around menopause simply due to the changing hormones. But beyond menopause, we do still have hormones, albeit at a lower concentration than premenopausal women."

Translated: Even post-menopause, women have a cyclical release of hormones which may cause acne flare ups later in the life. Fun.

Cystic Acne vs Hormonal Acne - What's the Difference?

How is hormonal acne different to the acne you had in high school?

Dr Kim explained adolescent acne tends to behave a little bit differently to hormonal acne, but there can be teens who have a hormonal component to their acne.

The key difference is where the acne is on your face. While typical adolescent acne affects the T-zone (nose, cheeks and forehead), hormonal acne sits around the jawline, the sides of the face and the neck.

Dr Kim added, "The pimples we get with hormonal acne tend to be deeper cystic lesions. The rest of the skin in women who have hormonal acne tends to be drier than those with adolescent acne - that skin tends to be quite oily."

How to Get Rid of Hormonal Acne.

Now, for the trillion dollar question - how to get rid of hormonal acne.

Dr Kim said you can't really 'get rid of' hormonal acne because that would mean changing the way the body functions on a cellular level, but we can manage our breakouts and their severity.

"It's often important to take a preventative approach [to skincare], not to just incorporate it before you expect to flare."

Best Treatments for Hormonal Acne.

Here are Dr Kim's best tips for treating hormonal acne:

  • Keep your skin clean at all times - have makeup-free days, and avoid exercising and sleeping in makeup.

  • Always wash your face before bed.

  • Use gentle skincare and don't overdo it - a lot of acne products can be harsh and irritating, which can make hormonal acne worse.

  • Slowly introduce alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs) like glycolic and lactic acid, or beta hydroxy acids (BHAs) like salicylic acid into your skincare routine as they remove dead skin cells and prevent clogged pores.

  • Here are our favourite products:

  • Topical antibiotics, benzyl peroxide or prescription retinoids may help - seek help from a medical professional.

  • Make sure everything that goes on your skin is oil-free or non-comedogenic (won't clog your pores).

  • Mineral makeup is generally better than liquid makeup as it's less comedogenic.

  • Maintain a healthy lifestyle - normal stress levels, a healthy low GI diet, getting enough sleep, not smoking etc.

  • Most importantly, address any potential underlying condition that could be driving hormonal acne, especially if you're experiencing other symptoms like hair thinning, excess hair growth or missing periods.

Learn more about the different types of exfoliating acids that can help manage hormonal acne in our Skincare Nerds YouTube video below!

What About Hormonal Acne Scarring?

Acne scarring (physical divets in the skin and little dark spots called post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation) can affect your confidence long after the pimples have healed.

To avoid acne scarring, Dr Kim says to:

  • Use sunscreen, ideally SPF 50+, every single day.

  • Avoid picking and traumatising the skin, which includes popping pimples.

  • Get on top of managing hormonal acne sooner rather than later, as the longer you leave it, the more likely you'll be to scar.

  • Always make sure skin treatments are performed by qualified, experienced skin professionals at reputable clinics.

  • Try using a combination of retinol and vitamin C to reduce the appearance of dark spots and acne scars.

What About Hormonal Acne Coming off the Contraceptive Pill?

One of the most common questions asked about hormonal acne is, will I get pimples coming off the pill?

Short answer, probably.

While the combined oral contraceptive pill regulates our hormone levels, which keeps breakouts at bay, coming off the pill doesn't cause hormonal acne. It merely removes the treatment that's been controlling your hormones and the acne in the first place.

"It won't happen instantly, but your skin can flare in the first few months after coming off the pill. Generally, it takes about three to four months, sometimes longer, for the hormones to settle back down to baseline," Dr Kim said.

"Then after that, we're looking at another three to four months for the skin changes to normalise, too. This is a variable time frame. Sometimes, it's even longer than that, but it will normalise eventually."

There you have it, that's all your questions about your hormonal acne, answered!

Want more helpful articles on acne? Check out these from our Adore Beauty team!


Want to learn more? Here's the transcript of our Beauty IQ Uncensored podcast episode on treating hormonal acne.


We chat to Dermatologist, Dr Burcu about how to treat and prevent hormonal breakouts.

Beauty IQ Uncensored Episode 54 Transcript - 'We Take A Deep Dive Into Hormonal Acne'

 

Hannah Furst:
Welcome everybody to Beauty IQ the podcast.

Joanna Fleming:
I'm your host, Joanna Fleming.

Hannah Furst:
And I am your co-host, Hannah Furst.

Joanna Fleming:
Did you know that we have now recorded 38 episodes in lockdown?

Hannah Furst:
On my. No. No, we haven't.

Joanna Fleming:
Yes, isn't that wild? I can't remember the last time we recorded in the studio.

Hannah Furst:
I can't remember either. I don't know that we ever will.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Because I'll be in Thailand and you'll still be in Melbourne.

Joanna Fleming:
I'll be here. Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
I wanted to give everyone, so you know how everyone's been sending their friends flowers or food, and so I have two things that I think are way better than any other gifts that I've seen on Instagram.

Joanna Fleming:
Okay, hit me.

Hannah Furst:
I've sent this to four friends. I did an Adore Beauty order to their house.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
And I did the silk face mask and the sensory mask sanitizer, my friends were so happy.

Joanna Fleming:
That's really thoughtful, Hannah.

Hannah Furst:
Oh, thanks. They said I get 40% off, so it wasn't expensive. And so my girlfriends were like, "The best, best, best part of all is it fits my tiny head."

Joanna Fleming:
Yes. Yeah it's definitely made for a woman's face.

Hannah Furst:
And then because I sent it to two friends, we have a group chat. She said her friends have mask envy. So yeah, that's been a big hit with my friends. And the other thing that my friend sent to me, and I think this is such a good idea. She sent me an erotic novel.

Joanna Fleming:
Oh. Perfect.

Hannah Furst:
And it was even it was from Amazon and it was Christmas wrapped and the gift note said, "Read it."

Joanna Fleming:
I love that. She knows you really well.

Hannah Furst:
She knows me really well. So I would highly recommend buying your friends that are single in lockdown, erotic literature.

Joanna Fleming:
It's a good tip. Yeah. Or a candle? A candles good.

Hannah Furst:
I just think you need to think outside the box. What's on today's episode, Jo?

Joanna Fleming:
So, on today's episode we are talking about warts which was actually a listener request. So we're coming through with the goods and we're also talking to a Sydney based dermatologist, Dr. Burku Kim about hormonal acne. Also another listener request. And of course our products we didn't know we needed, which wasn't requested by listeners, but we're doing it anyway. Wart's Hannah. Have you ever experienced a wart?

Hannah Furst:
Okay. So the only time I can remember getting a wart was back when you used to have to share swimming pool, back when you're in primary school.

Joanna Fleming:
Yes.

Hannah Furst:
And it's like the pool's really unhygienic.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
And the bathrooms are really unhygienic. And I think I remember getting one then, but I got it burnt off.

Joanna Fleming:
Yes.

Hannah Furst:
And I remember that vividly, but that's only happened once when I was 10 or younger. Have you had a wart?

Joanna Fleming:
Yes, I have had a wart.

Hannah Furst:
Ooh.

Joanna Fleming:
So my best friend when I was younger, I mean, she's still my best friend now, but she had a wart on her knee. And I remember one day I remember this so clearly because I was so angry at myself afterwards. So we were in her room and she was showing me this wart and I knew not to touch it because I think my mom had told me before they're really contagious. But I touched it and then a few weeks later a wart came up on my thumb and I had to go and have it burnt off. And I remember thinking like, "Oh, that's my own fault. I should never have touched her wart."

Hannah Furst:
So, Jo is one of the most germaphobic people I've ever met.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. Way before COVID.

Hannah Furst:
Way before it became cool.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. I've always had a hand sanitizer at my desk and every time I'd come back and sit at my desk, Hannah would just hear [inaudible 00:03:40] my hand sanitizer spray. So I had to ask Dr. Lucinda about warts because obviously I don't really know that much about them. So, firstly warts are benign growths of skin that are actually caused by the human papilloma virus, which we, I think you probably would have had it as well. Did you have the HPV?

Hannah Furst:
Yes.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. Immunization at school.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. So everyone, you'd go into the school hall and everyone would be lined up waiting to get there, because I went to an all girls school, which you did as well. And you'd see one in three girls fainting from having this injection. Whereas I'm all good with needles, I just can't swallow tablets, but stick a needle in my face any day, rather than swallow a tablet. I'm not into it. So anyway, that's actually caused by the human papilloma virus. And I wondered if there was any link between a skin wart and a genital wart, which I asked Dr. Lucinda, because I was like, "Is there any kind of like correlation here?"

Joanna Fleming:
And they're both from the HPV virus, but the location is different and the kind of the virus is different. So genital warts are obviously considered a STI and obviously a skin wart is not. So, it's a completely different thing, but they're still both called warts. We both have had experiences with having warts as kids. And Dr. Lucinda said that apparently you get them more as kids because your running around with bare feet or the skin barrier might be more impaired with cuts and things. And so it can allow an infection to enter the skin. But she did say, and this confirmed my belief when I was a child that I got it from my friend, they're super contagious.

Hannah Furst:
Nice.

Joanna Fleming:
So the HPV virus is transmitted by direct skin to skin contact and physical contact. So you can definitely get a war from touching someone else's wart. Just FYI if you're planning on touching anyone's wart. But they can infect healthy skin or skin that's injured or softened by water. So as you said, from the shared pools, that might've been why you got one and it can take up to six months or longer after the exposure to the virus for the wall to actually pop up. And in terms of treating them, as you said, we both had ours frozen off and you just have liquid nitrogen put on them and they just crossed over and they fall off. So if you've got kids that have warts-

Hannah Furst:
Can I ask a question on that though?

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. I'm not Dr. Lucinda, but sure.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. So, remember when I was at chemist warehouse and I sent you a photo of the wart stuff you can buy.

Joanna Fleming:
Yes. No, there is. It's a salicylic acid paste.

Hannah Furst:
Yes.

Joanna Fleming:
And she said it's called opt-ins or something. It's for plantar warts, which are on your feet. And I actually remember using this, it was kind of in a little nail Polish jar. And I tried this before I went and got it burnt off at the doctor and it didn't work enough for it to go away. So that's why I had it frozen off, but they're salicylic or lactic acid paints and they're in a little nail Polish varnish jar, and you can put them on and see if it works.

Joanna Fleming:
But I mean, she said that generally the liquid nitrogen thing is the best way to go. So, but she also said... Please don't do this, but there is some evidence that hypnotherapy is a treatment for warts.

Hannah Furst:
Wait, there is?

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. That's what she said. But she was like, "Just don't do it. Just go have it frozen off." So that's Dr. Lucinda's take on it, but she is coming on next week's episode for us to talk about thrush.

Hannah Furst:
I'm very surprised it's taken this long to talk about it, [crosstalk 00:07:12].

Joanna Fleming:
I know we've just had so many other things come up haven't we? I'd love to hear your wart stories though, everyone.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
Because it was quite a few people that requested warts as a topic. So I'd love to know why you were actually requesting that. But anyway, that's warts for today, you can get them frozen off and yeah. Today's guest is joining us to talk about something that has been very highly requested, Hannah. I think we've each received a million messages about this particular topic. Dr. Burku Kim, a Sydney based specialist dermatologist is here to talk to us about hormonal acne. Welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Joanna Fleming:
No, it's our pleasure. Now we need to get to the bottom of hormonal acne because I think for a lot of people, it's a very confusing thing to go through. Can you tell us when and why hormonal acne usually occurs?

Dr. Burku Kim:
Yeah, sure. So hormonal acne forms as a result of fluctuations in hormones. These hormones can vary during the menstrual cycle for example. Also they can vary as we age. These hormones usually lead to precursors of testosterone, which is a male hormone. And these bind to receptors that are in oil glands. Then what happens is that there's an excess oil production, which leads to a bacteria which then drives inflammation. And then the formation of acne.

Dr. Burku Kim:
These receptors are more prominent in areas such as the jaw, the neck and the sides of the face, which is where we tend to find this problem. It affects women of all ages, but usually after the age of 20 with this type of acne. It can happen even though around menopause, due to the change of hormones at around this time. So, no, one's really in the clear.

Dr. Burku Kim:
There are many reasons why it occur, lots of theories. So, genetics, extreme stress, diet, they can all cause a flux in hormones. And obviously hormonal factors can also contribute and these may include starting or stopping the oral contraceptive pill, pregnancy, menopause. And as a dermatologist, we also think about a set of medical conditions that can cause a change in hormones, for example, polycystic ovarian syndrome, as well as a few rarer conditions.

Joanna Fleming:
So breakouts that teenagers get, would you still consider that hormonal?

Dr. Burku Kim:
So adolescent acne tends to behave a little bit differently to hormonal acne. That said there can be teenagers who have a hormonal component to their acne. But typically we think about it as the typical adolescent acne. And then we think about it as the hormonal acne. And these are different in a few different ways.

Joanna Fleming:
I know for myself, I usually get breakouts around my chin and sometimes down on onto my neck. How can you tell if what you're experiencing is hormonal?

Dr. Burku Kim:
So hormonal acne tends to occur cyclically. So for example, typically women may get a flare seven to 10 days before a menstrual cycle. The key thing also is that the distribution appears to be different. So typical adolescent acne, for example, affects the T-zone. So the nose, the cheeks, the forehead, whereas hormonal acne tends to affect the jaw line, the sides of the face and the neck.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Also, when we look at the lesions themselves, the pimples that we get with hormonal acne tends to be deeper cystic lesions, not to say that you can't get the comedones and small lesions as well. The rest of the skin in women who have hormonal acne tends to be drier than adolescent acne, where that the skin tends to be quite oily. So there are a few different ways to tell the difference.

Joanna Fleming:
And you mentioned a little bit about the pill before in one of your answers. For women that are coming off the pill and experiencing issues with their skin, how long can they expect that to last? How long does it usually take to settle?

Dr. Burku Kim:
So from a skin perspective, after you come off the pill, your skin can flare in the first few months, so the flare doesn't happen instantly. It can flare in the first few months of coming off the pill. And generally it takes about three to four months, sometimes longer for the hormones to settle back down to baseline. And then after that, we're looking at another three to four months for the skin changes to normalize too. And this is a variable timeframe. Sometimes it's even longer than that.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Now it's important to also, I guess, to note that coming off the pill, isn't the cause of acne. So the combined oral contraceptive pure regulates hormone levels, which keeps your breakouts at bay, so to speak. And so coming off it doesn't cause more pimples. It just removes the treatment that's been controlling the hormones and the acne in the first place, but typically it lasts three to four months after the flare happens for it to settle back down.

Joanna Fleming:
So are there any ways that we can reduce or prevent hormonal acne or breakouts around the time of your period?

Dr. Burku Kim:
So we can't change what happens really on a cellular level, but there are some things that we can do to make the breakouts less severe. And it's often important to take a preventative approach, not to just incorporate it before you expect to flare, but to have a preventative approach generally. So how do we do this? It's important to keep your skin clean at all times. So have makeup free days and also avoid exercising and sleeping with makeup on if possible.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Make sure that you wash your face before bed so that you're not sleeping with makeup and oil and debris on your face. Use gentle skincare. Don't overdo it. A lot of acne products can be irritating, particularly with hormonal acne. So it's important not to overdo it. Another key thing is to make sure that your products are all oil free or non-comedogenic, this includes everything that goes on your skin. So, washes, sunscreens, makeup moisturizer. It should all be oil free. That said mineral makeup generally is better than liquid makeup as it's less comedogenic. Equally, it's important to avoid thick, heavy creams on your skin.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Other things that are really important, especially around the time of your flare is to make sure that you have a healthy lifestyle. Maintain normal stress levels if possible, extreme stress can affect your hormones as well as your oil production. Have a healthy diet that is low GI. So the studies show that high GI foods can worsen acne. So this includes sugary foods and drinks, white bread, other highly processed foods. There's also some evidence that skim milk, as opposed to say full fat milk, interestingly can spike a hormone called insulin like growth factor, which can drive acne. Make sure you're getting enough sleep, cut back on smoking and maintain a healthy weight.

Dr. Burku Kim:
So, these are all important lifestyle factors that can exacerbate acne, especially hormonal acne, and it's worth having that preventative approach to minimize the chances of having a really bad breakout before you get your flare. Finally, I guess also probably the most important is to address any potential underlying condition that can be driving hormonal acne, which is why dermatologists may often assess for underlying hormonal problems such as polycystic ovarian syndrome, especially if there are other signs such as irregular or missing periods or excess hair growth in unwanted areas or hair thinning. So it's important to see a dermatologist if there's any possibility of having a hormonal problem, because these can often have implications beyond just your skin.

Joanna Fleming:
Were there any specific skincare ingredients that you would recommend? I know you said that certain ingredients can dry out. Is there anything that you recommend like, "Yes." And other ones your like, "No. That's going to be too harsh."

Dr. Burku Kim:
So, yeah. So a lot of the acne products can be irritating, particularly as I mentioned, sometimes the skin tends to be dry with hormonal acne, which is different to the normal adolescent acne where the skin is oily. So, any skincare that is incorporated should be increased in stages incrementally based on tolerance. It's often best done with some guidance from a skin care professional. Generally though, incorporating AHAs for example, such as glycolic acid, lactic acid, or my favorite BHAs for this condition, salicylic acid. They can help hormonal acne. And what they do is they remove the dead skin cells and they prevent clogged pores. And they're often available over the counter as cleansers. And they're really good starting step.

Dr. Burku Kim:
There are beyond that a few prescription creams that can be prescribed. These include topical retinoids, which do a lot of wonderful things for skin, but not safe in pregnancy and breastfeeding, and other creams that can be incorporated that often require prescriptions such as topical antibiotics, benzyl peroxide, for example, they can all help. That said creams alone will not cure this problem and any potential perception of your skin clearing is not a cure. And often the dermatologist that you see may need to start a medication to balance out hormones, which drives this acne and there are various medications that can be used. It may mean that someone needs to go back on the oral contraceptive pill or start a tablet that blocks the male hormone receptor called spironolactone.

Dr. Burku Kim:
There are other treatments for normal acne as well that may be incorporated as well as physical therapies like lights and chemical peels. So lots of different treatment options. The one that we can do at home is incorporating an AHA BHA.

Joanna Fleming:
And obviously, with any kind of acne comes the risk of scarring, which I think a lot of people are a little bit worried about when they say that they have experiencing a lot of breakouts. Do you have any tips for reducing acne scarring or preventing it?

Dr. Burku Kim:
So, scarring is a real concern for all patients with acne, as is pigmentary change, which can be a real nuisance that lasts for many months and even years after acne clears. So it's really quite critical that we do a few things. So firstly, we need to use sunscreen, ideally SPF 50 and oil-free preparation. In a lotion base is preferred to a thick, creamy paste if possible. Sun protection can help minimize the appearance of scars. So it's really quite important.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Secondly, it's really important that we avoid picking and traumatizing our skin, which includes popping pimples. Okay. It's important to keep our hands off our face. On that note, it's important to not scrub your face. If you're getting procedures done, make sure that you go to someone who's qualified and experienced. It's important that you get on top of treating your acne straight away. The longer that you leave it, the greater the risk of scarring, not to mention the later diagnosis of a medical condition potentially that could have implications beyond just your skin.

Joanna Fleming:
Totally. I definitely agree with getting on to it really quickly. I think a lot of people buy different creams and face washes hoping that they'll be able to get on top of it without seeing a dermatologist or a dermal clinician, or someone that can really help them prescribe the right treatment to their skin to help them get on top of it. So that's a great tip.

Joanna Fleming:
The first time that I ever I saw hormonal acne was on my mom, she used to get these big mama pimples on her neck, even well into her forties. And I think even into her fifties and she never ever got a break out anywhere else on her face. She'll love that I'm telling her story, but she just got these huge ones and they looked really, really painful on her neck. So, does it really just, I guess, continue on for forever? Does it ever end is what we're trying to ask.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Yes. So, hormones can change around the time of menopause and we know that acne can flare around that time just due to the changing hormones. Beyond menopause even, we do still have hormones, albeit at a lower concentration than premenopausal women, but post-menopausal women do have a cyclical release of hormones and therefore, unfortunately they're not completely out of the clear. So some women do tend to have acne much later into life, unfortunately.

Joanna Fleming:
And does the treatment differ between someone in their twenties to someone in their late fifties, for example, if they're both experiencing hormonal acne, would you approach that differently?

Dr. Burku Kim:
Absolutely. And the reason being that diagnosis is key. So whilst women in their fifties can get acne, there are a few rare conditions that we would need to exclude. For example, problems with the adrenal gland or pituitary gland, they can often cause acne much later in life. So we think about rarer things in that age group and we may screen for them, but in terms of the treatment itself, specific treatment, essentially, that is the same with the exception of the underlying problem that may be causing it.

Joanna Fleming:
Right. Okay. Well, this is all very interesting. I hope that's answered a few of our listener questions and I'm sure that a lot of people will be booking dermatologist appointments as they listen to this. Thank you so much for your time today, dr. Burku Kim. You can visit Dr. Kim in Sydney if you're based there. Thanks so much.

Dr. Burku Kim:
Thank you for having me.

Hannah Furst:
I'm actually really annoyed by your products.

Joanna Fleming:
Why?

Hannah Furst:
I'm going to be honest with you because that's my favorite scent.

Joanna Fleming:
I know and you were going to be so [inaudible 00:20:08].

Hannah Furst:
Lumira, I'm really angry. Why are you sending this to Jo and not me? It's my favorite scent, Cuban tobacco.

Joanna Fleming:
Okay. So just for anyone who missed that introduction. This is the Lumira Cuban tobacco perfume. This is a EDP or Eau de parfum and it is the same fragrance as the candle. The Lumira Cuban tobacco candle which Hannah and I both are obsessed with. It's like the best hot man smell ever, but also kind of a little bit feminine as well.

Hannah Furst:
Front man all the way.

Joanna Fleming:
Anyways. So yeah, I've just been wearing this flat out and it's just a reminder of how much I love the candle. Every time I get a waft of it, when I move around, I'm like, "Oh, I just love that candle so much."

Hannah Furst:
I love it.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. It is honestly such a nice fragrance. So if you like hot man scents, or you maybe even if you wear, because I know a lot of women do this, they wear men's colognes instead of women's perfumes, if you do that, you're going to love this perfume.

Hannah Furst:
Well, I'm just having a look at the notes. So Hetty's Tangerine cardamom, clove bud. I don't know what any of that means. I mean, I don't know what that smells like when I say it out loud.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Heart is clean floral, base is mahogany [inaudible 00:21:18], musk, vanilla and tobacco. Ooh, sexy.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
It's already giving me... Yeah. That's so it actually reminds me of-

Joanna Fleming:
Giving you what?

Hannah Furst:
It's it's giving me like-

Joanna Fleming:
Fanny flutters.

Hannah Furst:
Fanny flutters. Actually, do you know, he's been giving me a lot of Fanny flutters at the moment? And he's not even my type, is Robert Pattison. Have you been seeing?

Joanna Fleming:
Yes. Oh my god.

Hannah Furst:
So, I don't know what's happened to me because he's not my type at all.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. Neither.

Hannah Furst:
Not to look at as such, I like his vibe. I'm vibing.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. Vibe what he's putting out.

Hannah Furst:
I don't know how that relates to Lumira's Cuban tobacco, but here we are.

Joanna Fleming:
Anyway, you've got a story about Ella Bache, a sun product you haven't listed it, but you've got apparently you've got a good story for me.

Hannah Furst:
No, I really, I just wanted to read out. So my girlfriend kept sending me links to foundations and said, "I want to non foundation, foundation." And then I suggested ultra, makeup forever, ultra HD, and did a little video for her. But she really just wanted something that was like foundation, but not foundation. Because she doesn't wear foundation. She's got a baby and toddler. So I then actually suggested that Ella Bache's super fluid, great SPF 50 plus.

Joanna Fleming:
Has that been... I feel like I've done that as a PWD [crosstalk 00:22:39].

Hannah Furst:
Have you?

Joanna Fleming:
I think I have.

Hannah Furst:
Oh, well here it is again.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. I'm pretty sure I've done it.

Hannah Furst:
We're going full circle aren't we?

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Anyway, I sent it to my friend. I sent her a video and she just said, "Oh my god, this is everything." And sent me a photo of it and said, "This is exactly what I wanted."

Joanna Fleming:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Hannah Furst:
And then she basically has told everyone she knows to buy it. And all of her friends and her sister they've all bought this.

Joanna Fleming:
I'm not surprised.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
It is a amazing tinted moisturizer.

Hannah Furst:
It really is a foundation though. I would say.

Joanna Fleming:
I feel it gives the skin a tint, but it doesn't give you coverage. It gives you that warmth and the evenness that you want, but it doesn't give you coverage. If that makes sense. Does that make sense? It'd probably be, I would consider it in a BB cream category.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. See the differences is so I had initially suggested the CC cream to her.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
And then she doesn't like full coverage, doesn't even want medium coverage. She wants a really light coverage foundation. She's got great skin. And so she's just absolutely dead set this is the best thing she's ever used.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
So, shout out to my friend Abby, because I've run out, I've clearly run out of products to talk about.

Joanna Fleming:
Clearly, I know.

Hannah Furst:
I know.

Joanna Fleming:
I've got heeps of things coming up, I'm excited for the next few PWD KWNs. I've got heaps of products to talk about.

Hannah Furst:
I think that the problem for me at the moment is that I'm not really wearing makeup because I'm not going anywhere.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
And then because my impaired barrier.

Joanna Fleming:
Oh, okay. You haven't really been able to try new products. Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
I did though. I did use a $70 sheet mask the other night and I was like-

Joanna Fleming:
From what brand?

Hannah Furst:
Is the Armani sheet mask. It was $70, but I swear, I was like, "Best sheet mask I've ever used."

Joanna Fleming:
I'd hope so.

Hannah Furst:
Because it was the Crema Nera. So, Crema Nera is so expensive.

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. If you're going to pend 70 bucks on a sheet mask, it better be the best one you've ever tried.

Hannah Furst:
Well, it was.

Joanna Fleming:
Right.

Hannah Furst:
And I was pleasantly surprised. I was like, "Wow, I can see why this is..." Well, I wouldn't personally. I mean, I might with my 40% discount, but sorry to all the listeners that don't.

Joanna Fleming:
A lot of listeners, I often get asked what our discount is. So there you go, it's 40% off. Did you have anything you wanted to finish with?

Hannah Furst:
All right. These are people's tweets, hearing other people's kids screaming in Zoom meetings is the best new form of birth control. [crosstalk 00:25:08]

Joanna Fleming:
Oh my god, I can totally relate to that. The kids next door are just always screaming and I'm like, "That just really puts me off."

Hannah Furst:
Hiding when you see someone you went to high school with in public counts as self care. So true.

Joanna Fleming:
All the masks make it so much easier though, to walk straight past someone.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Just because he dated you for seven years. It doesn't mean he will marry you. My uncle studied medicine for six years. He's now a DJ. Have you been listening to any good podcasts at the moment? Or read any good books?

Joanna Fleming:
No.

Hannah Furst:
No, really?

Joanna Fleming:
No, I've been told about a hundred times to watch the social dilemma and I still haven't watched it.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. I'm going to watch that too, because I think it's really relevant for us and our social media addictions , for sure.

Joanna Fleming:
Agree. Yeah. But I'm just worried it'll pull me off Instagram and I just, that's the only thing that I have to do at the moment.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
But I do have a crime series recommendation for those of you who also like crime stuff. Outcry on Stan is really good for anyone who's looking something to watch.

Hannah Furst:
Oh, BDIQ [inaudible 00:26:13] We're in the top shots today, Jo. Number 53.

Joanna Fleming:
Are we?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Number 53 today.

Joanna Fleming:
Oh, good for us.

Hannah Furst:
That's pretty good. Thanks guys.

Joanna Fleming:
We do recommend that one, yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Highly recommend. Oh my god. Yes, I do have one Netflix recommendation. Enola Holmes.

Joanna Fleming:
What's that?

Hannah Furst:
It's the new Netflix show and Henry Cavill is Sherlock Holmes in it and he is such a spunk. You will really enjoy it.

Joanna Fleming:
Okay. Good tip.

Hannah Furst:
Do you know what? I listened to back to the episode last week and I was like, "I sound shrill." So, I'm really sorry if anyone...

Joanna Fleming:
I'm going to say, honestly, if you ever do a podcast and I'm speaking to our listeners, just be prepared to hate yourself after you listen to it.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Fleming:
Because listening back to your own voice is the most torturous thing ever. So, apologies that you have to listen to us.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. I sometimes listen back to myself and I'm like, "Do people hate me? I sound shrill."

Joanna Fleming:
Yeah. I feel the same.

Hannah Furst:
Like, "Oh my god."

Joanna Fleming:
And now we're probably going to get people reviewing it saying, "Yes." We do. [crosstalk 00:27:10]

Hannah Furst:
I hate your voice. I really sometimes don't understand. My sister said one of [inaudible 00:27:15] crime podcasts she listens to is I an Aussie girl. And did I tell you this?

Joanna Fleming:
No.

Hannah Furst:
How people were reviewing it saying they didn't like her accent. And it's like, if you don't like her accent and her voice, just don't listen.

Joanna Fleming:
Exactly. Just don't listen. And don't say anything mean, that's my motto for 2020.

Hannah Furst:
I know. That's my motto too for 2020.

Joanna Fleming:
All right. Well, buy guys.

Hannah Furst:
Thanks everyone for joining us today.

Joanna Fleming:
Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends. It helps other people to discover us. And also we really want to know what you thought about these podcasts. So, if you can leave us a review, that would be much appreciated.