Episode 43: Are Eye Creams Even Necessary?

We're back for another episode of Beauty IQ Uncensored, brought to you by Adore Beauty. 

What’s on this episode? We’re glad you asked...

Firstly, if you haven't stalked Jo's Wish segment on Instagram you should - here's the link to the highlight.

Cold sores. Ever had one?

We asked our new resident GP @todaywithdrlucia to share some info around what causes cold sores, how to avoid them and what you should do when you feel that familiar tingle starting to come up! Oh, and forget the home remedies.

We'd love to hear your inconvenient cold sore stories (especially if you got one on your wedding day!). Hit us up via Instagram @adorebeauty.

You can follow Dr Lucinda Raudaschl here.

Are eye creams actually necessary?

The answer will honestly surprise you - it certainly surprised us!

We asked Dr Natasha Cook from Darlinghurst Dermatology her thoughts on eye creams, their place in your routine, which ingredients work best for eye concerns, and chatted about some more invasive procedures as well.

You can find Dr Natasha Cook on Instagram here.

But Jo and Hannah are unlikely to be deterred from their excessive skincare routines. Hannah is currently using Cosmedix Opti Crystal- Liquid Crystal Eye Serum and Jo is using Murad Vita-C Eyes Dark Circle Corrector (which she concedes is the ONLY eye products that's ever worked on her dark circles).

If you still wanna use an eye cream, you can shop here.

Products we didn't know we needed:

Jo: Mr Bright Teeth Whitening Strips

Hannah: Lady Suite Glow Oil (coming soon to Adore Beauty - Hannah got a little too excited to share this one!)

Read our disclaimer here.

Hosts: Joanna Fleming & Hannah Furst

Guests: Dr Natasha Cook

Resident GP: Dr Lucinda Raudaschl

Dr Lucinda Raudaschl chats to us about cold sores and how to treat them. Plus! We're joined by Dr Natasha Cook to get her thoughts on eye creams

Beauty IQ Uncensored Episode 43 Transcript - 'Are Eye Creams Even Necessary?'

 

Hannah Furst:
Welcome everybody to Beauty IQ, the podcast.

Joanna Flemming:
I'm your host, Joanna Flemming.

Hannah Furst:
And I am your co-host Hannah Furst. So I have a request to introduce this episode, or I did want to say to you that I went on a date with the doctor, so we might have a doctor, regular.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, but I already got one.

Hannah Furst:
She already got one. So my doctor now will no longer be relevant.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, look, if he wants to come on as a guest... Is he going on your dating podcast?

Hannah Furst:
No. No, no, no, no. I don't think so. He actually told me a really funny story that he was on a date with a girl that was wearing red lipstick. And I was like, "Go, go girl for wearing red lipstick on a first date." And she had red lipstick on her teeth the entire date. And he didn't say anything.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, no. She would have gone home, and seeing that and being like, "Oh my God."

Hannah Furst:
Please any man listening, if a girl has lipstick on her teeth, just tell her.

Joanna Flemming:
Or anything in her teeth, just tell her.

Hannah Furst:
Can you imagine going through a whole date and not saying something that there was red lipstick on someone's teeth?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. I can't imagine doing that because I'd struggle to tell someone, but I'd want to know if it was me.

Hannah Furst:
Same.

Joanna Flemming:
Personally, I'd want to know.

Hannah Furst:
So if you're dating either of us, please tell us if we have stuff on our face. Now, aside from that, I had requested that we call out to the Wish Ads that you have been posting on your Instagram.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes. Okay. So only a small portion of people know about this because they're the people that who follow me on Instagram. But I have this segment that I do, that is my most popular segment on my personal Instagram, which is... I don't know if everybody listening will know what this is, but there's this website called Wish and they sell some of the stranger stuff you could possibly find on the internet.

Hannah Furst:
Oh my God. Seriously.

Joanna Flemming:
Genuinely the ads that come up in my Facebook are not related to any algorithm of my Google searches or anything. I swear. Because I guess some weird (beep) come up in my Wish Ads, but I started to share them and people that just love it. And it's like, I'm now getting submissions from people being like, "Look at these weird thing that came up in my Wish today."

Hannah Furst:
I'm having a look at your [inaudible 00:02:10] just got a highlights.

Joanna Flemming:
It's in my highlights. Yep.

Hannah Furst:
And so I loved the one where you said, "Oh, a moldy piece of banana bread." What the hell, I live in dollars for that moldy piece of something?

Joanna Flemming:
It's bizarre. You just never know what you're going to get. Like last week's was... What did we have last week?

Hannah Furst:
You had like, "This is really weed contraption to remove ingrown toenails."

Joanna Flemming:
Yes. Last week there was this balloon that looked like some way of cleaning out your bum or something. I don't know what it was, but in the diagram, there was just [crosstalk 00:02:47] depict actual human anatomy. So I don't know.

Hannah Furst:
I'm going through them now. There's the lack of missions for the cash.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, yeah. It honestly goes on and on there-

Hannah Furst:
Oh, the fake poo?

Joanna Flemming:
You don't know how many fake poos I've heard.

Hannah Furst:
Okay. So I then got served an ad from Farfetch, which is an online, it's like a Net-a-Porter and it looks like a penis bag or I don't know how else to describe it.

Joanna Flemming:
Like a penis hold bag [crosstalk 00:03:17] made it like mesh material.

Hannah Furst:
[inaudible 00:03:19] Like those mesh water bottle holders.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Well, this was like that, except it looked like it was for painters, but it's actually just a designer handbag. And I thought it was a Wish Ad. Anyway guys, get on.

Joanna Flemming:
It's actually a designer.

Hannah Furst:
It was actually a designer handbag.

Joanna Flemming:
Anyway, we've completely lost it in isolation.

Hannah Furst:
Totally. Completely.

Joanna Flemming:
All right. Hannah, what's on tonight's episode?

Hannah Furst:
On today's episode, we are talking about Cold Sores and we've actually got out new resident GP, Dr. Lucinda... Do you know how to say her name?

Joanna Flemming:
Raudaschl.

Hannah Furst:
Thank you. And I was talking to Dr. Natasha Cook who is a dermatologist about eye treatments. And of course the product we didn't know we needed and mine is genuinely, there's never a product that you didn't know you need it, like these it.

Joanna Flemming:
Today is cringey combo. This was actually a listener request. And I thought it was a really good topic because I didn't really know that much about it, but today's topic is Cold Sores and we have found a new resident, GP Dr. Lucinda. You can find her on Instagram @todaywithdrLucia. She is a GP from the UK, but she's actually living in Sydney now. And what I love about her Instagram is that she talks about what the experience is like being a GP in Australia. So if any other GPs that want to come from abroad to Australia and she just discusses all different kinds of things that are Instagram. So she messaged us and I was like, "Yes, I love her. We'll have her." So today she has sent us through some pretty comprehensive notes on cold sores.

Hannah Furst:
Okay. Why don't we start with what is a cold sore?

Joanna Flemming:
Okay. So Dr. Lucinda explained... Obviously most of us have seen a cold sore before, but they're small, painful blisters, and they commonly appear on the lips and the mouth. So you might feel initial tingling sensation and then a red spot will pop up and then a blister, and then that forms like an ulcer and it crossover. That process generally takes about 10 days, she said. It's not actually caused by a cold most of the time. I mean, the name suggests that it is, but it's sometimes triggered when you are unwell, but it's also known as fever blisters or herpes simplex labialis, which labialis is just a Latin word for lips. I don't know if you've ever heard of like your nasolabial folds kind of the same thing, those lines that-

Hannah Furst:
I always thought that was just a really bad word for that area.

Joanna Flemming:
Well, labia is your vagina lips.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Also, does it make-

Joanna Flemming:
So that makes sense, doesn't it?

Hannah Furst:
That does make sense. Okay. Wow.

Joanna Flemming:
And speaking of vaginas, you might have heard cold sores be related to the term herpes, which we would commonly associate with an STI. So they're caused by the herpes simplex virus, but there's a type one and a type two. So the type that causes cold sores is the type one. And then the one that you most commonly get in your genital region is type two. So they are a bit different.

Hannah Furst:
Because I know herpes zoster is actually shingles, which is-

Joanna Flemming:
Was?

Hannah Furst:
So herpes zoster... Yeah. It's shingles. Do you know what shingles is?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. So herpes zoster is then shingles, which is from the chicken pox virus. We've got to do one on shingles.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh yeah. We've got to do one and chicken pox actually.

Hannah Furst:
It's caused by the reactivation of the chicken pox virus. Yeah.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, look at you doctor Hannah, where's been this all time?

Hannah Furst:
I was on a date with a doctor on the weekend, so I'm feeling-

Joanna Flemming:
Feeling very knowledgeable.

Hannah Furst:
I was like really bringing out all my knowledge on because I've been writing about the COVID vaccine and I think he said something like, I said, "Oh yeah, the AstraZeneca [inaudible 00:07:14]." And he's like, "Oh, there's another one though." And then he said, "Oh, the one from Oxford." And I said, "That's the same one." And he's like, "Oh yeah, you're bright." And I was like, "Yep."

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, wow. You schooled the doctor?

Hannah Furst:
Schooled the doctor.

Joanna Flemming:
That is bold.

Hannah Furst:
I didn't say I watched a lot of Grey's Anatomy.

Joanna Flemming:
We did. And that's paying off for you-

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. It's paying off.

Joanna Flemming:
Obviously?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. So it did a misconception that you can transmit it through like sipping on a glass that someone else has sipped on.

Joanna Flemming:
Dr. Lucinda said that it can be spread through kissing and also indirect contact, like sharing towels and makeup and other things in bathroom. But you have to be infected by the virus at some point in your life. So that often happens in childhood. And then once you get the virus, it travels to a group of nerve cells, under our skin, and then it remains inactive until it's triggered. And then that's when you would experience a cold sore.

Hannah Furst:
What's the best way to treat a cold sore if you feel one coming up.

Joanna Flemming:
So she said, as soon as you start noticing one coming up, even when it's tingling, you can start using the antiviral cream, which you can buy over the counter or at a chemist that can help to reduce the duration of the cold sore, but it can also help it heal sooner. Some people require oral antivirals. That's only if they don't respond to creams. She said a lot of patients ask her about home remedies, but she said that they weren't reduce the duration of a cold sore. And sometimes in some cases it can actually make it worse. So best to stick to the over the counter stuff at the chemist in her opinion.

Hannah Furst:
So what about in terms of prevention? Are there ways that you can avoid cold sores if you're prone to getting them?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. So I actually have heard that when you get really stressed, cold sores can pop up, but I've heard of people getting them like on their wedding day because they've been really stressed about their wedding, which that would possibly be the worst time in your life to get a cold sore. That would be so annoying. So if you're prone to getting cold sores, Dr. Lucinda said there are a couple of triggers to be aware of and that can include being stressed and really exhausted. So trying to be mindful of the way you're feeling and getting control of that. But also surgeries can put you at risk of getting cold sores, dental procedures, and also cosmetic procedures like lip fillers.

Joanna Flemming:
So it's really important. And if you've had lip fillers before seen on your form, that there's an option to take whether you get cold sores or not. So it's always best to make your practitioner aware that you are prone to them. And also cold weather can create chapped lips and then that can be a trigger as well and excessive sun exposure, which we know Hannah is a no, no anyway. So it's important to use SPF.

Hannah Furst:
Although I did tell you today to go out outside in the sun-

Joanna Flemming:
You did.

Hannah Furst:
... but I said wear a wide brim hat.

Joanna Flemming:
You did.

Hannah Furst:
You were like, "Yeah, I've been sitting by the window with my wide brim hat. You know that brainstorm we had the other day and I had my video off, because I was wearing a wide brim hat in the sun.

Joanna Flemming:
Why didn't you just show us? That would have been funny?

Hannah Furst:
I just felt embarrassed. I was like, "There're people who are going to be like, 'why are you wearing a wide brim hat on a [inaudible 00:10:19]'."

Joanna Flemming:
Because we're in isolation.

Hannah Furst:
Because we're in isolation and also like I'm sun's [inaudible 00:10:26].

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, exactly, Hannah.

Hannah Furst:
Wow. That was very interesting. I feel that we get Dr. Lucinda Raudaschl, however can you find out which she prefers. I think we should get her on.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes, definitely. So if you want to see more of what Dr. Lucinda is up to, you can check her out @todaywithdrLucia, but-

Hannah Furst:
I've just been stalking her. I can see she's got some IGTV videos. Can't wait to watch.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes. You might want to watch. Yeah, but we're definitely going to get her on to have a proper chat, but we've just started with her sending us over some pretty comprehensive notes that we've made our way through, but we've learned a lot, I think along this journey, haven't we Hannah?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. But I think that if you're unsure, definitely head to your GP this does not have to choose an appointment with your GP.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes.

Hannah Furst:
So we've noticed, I guess from just a couple of feedback that we've had, that there's still a bit of a, I guess, stigma and a bit of judgment around cosmetic procedures. And I guess the goal of this podcast and the reason that we talk about everything. We talk about everything from people that are into it and then people that aren't into it. And the whole reason is Adobe is very much like a democracy in that way.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. And giving you the option to make whatever decision that you want to make.

Hannah Furst:
Call it away. And we give you all the information, you decide what you want to do. But our goal is to provide all the information and different sides to each treatment. So if you're not into that kind of content around anti aging treatments, feel free to fast forward on to the product we didn't know we needed.

Joanna Flemming:
But I would recommend listening because this is a really good interview.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Flemming:
I really liked it. So I will listen.

Hannah Furst:
I will listen but please don't troll us off.

Joanna Flemming:
Okay. So this has to who've been probably our most requested episode topic, I think, and that is eye creams. So we've asked Dr. Natasha Cook from Darlinghurst Dermatology to join us today. Welcome Dr. Natasha.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Thank you for having me.

Joanna Flemming:
No, it's our pleasure. Now you actually have your own line of skincare. So I thought you'd be best qualified to discuss this topic because you know a little bit more about ingredients than probably the everyday dermatologist. So can you tell us are eye creams or treatments or gels, are they really necessary and how do they differ from a regular serum or moisturizer that we'd use on our face?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Okay. So the way I see eye creams is they're often a totally unnecessary product to have in your beauty regime. And I've sort of after being pretty [inaudible 00:13:05] with reading ingredients lists for the last couple of decades, when you can break all that down, they can often end up just being very expensive products in a jar that's a quarter of the size of a good moisturizer, but four times the price. And I think a lot of the motivation of the industry out there is it's a really difficult area to treat. It's one of the first signs of aging that appear on people.

Dr Natasha Cook:
And it's a vulnerability in the population of women, but also men in the beauty industry because it makes them look tired, it makes them look old. And so the whole essence if I could wax something on the [inaudible 00:13:38] things that absolutely annoy me, I would love that. And so people are vulnerable and therefore motivated to spend a lot of money. And so it's a big component trade of the market that I think sometimes the consumer can really readily get taken advantage of.

Joanna Flemming:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's a very interesting point of view.

Hannah Furst:
Does that mean... And we've spoken to a dermal therapist about this. Can you use a regular serum under your eye? Is that a big no, no?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Totally. As a derm, yes you can, but obviously you may not jump, dump, dive into the deep end of a high concentrate and try to retinoic acid prescription cream or potentially a high percentage of a retinol straight away, because it may cause mutation, but it can create irritation anywhere in the face. And the thing about the tissue and atomically around the eyelid skin is it's about half the thickness of the skin on the rest of your face. And therefore, if it does get irritated, there's a high degree of sensitivity. And then we also know that chronic irritation can lead to discoloration, actually make the appearance of things like dark circles, eye bags, whatever look worse. But the answer to that is yes, but you want to make sure that the ingredients there aren't going to create irritation If they don't really the serums you're using on your face can be used pretty much anywhere else.

Hannah Furst:
That has cleared up a lot of questions in my head.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Far away. That's what we're here for.

Hannah Furst:
I'm always avoiding the eye area and I'm like, "Do I need to be doing this?" But I have though, if I take the retinol too far, I do feel that irritation sometimes and it can stink.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Totally. And then you can do things like if you're putting in more of an active one, make sure you use it with the moisturizer. So the moisturizer will reduce the amount of inflammation, irritation, and help support the barrier in that area. So there are ways of, and you might then titrate it into your system if you're a little bit concerned, maybe only using it a couple of nights a week and then gradually building up depending on tolerance and sort of let the skin in your body tell you if that's something you can use or not. Yeah. So I'm not a massive fan of eye creams. I don't make one for that reason. I haven't found anything that I think specifically rectifies. I think there are some things that can temporarily make the appearance the surface look better, reduce the inflammation, but [inaudible 00:15:46] and eye cream specific product entirely because a lot of the ingredients really are quite the same as a very good moisturizing product.

Hannah Furst:
And you just touched on before that eyes are the first place we start to notice signs of aging. Can you explain why that is?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Okay. So if you think of the eyelid skin, like I liked the analogy, it's like tissue paper and then the skin on the rest of the face is more like a very fine piece of cardboard, Okay? So there is a difference anatomically in how thick the skin is. So if you are trying to bend a piece of cardboard a couple of times, it doesn't really put much of an indentation or align, that's pretty resilient, but if you crease and take a piece of tissue paper, it literally imprints with a permanent indentation. So that skin under the eye with period of time of [inaudible 00:16:34] smelling, creasing using [inaudible 00:16:37] starts to gain fully, look older and show the signs of aging more literally than elsewhere in the face. Then on top of that, you've got the natural volume loss that happens with aging, particularly fat loss.

Dr Natasha Cook:
There's not a lot of fat under eyelid skin. So as that [inaudible 00:16:52] all through the aging, then the underlying muscle and the body structure starts to become more transparent through the skin. So you get that appearance of that dark circles and shadowing, which gets exacerbated by the aging process. So we do need to be careful with it. So things like rubbing it or irritating it will remain the course it's thinner and finer. It is more predisposed to becoming inflamed and we know inflammation creates aging damage. And we also know because it's so fine, it's got to end up fundamentally creasing better. So we want to do little things in the early decades of life to try and prevent and preserve the quality of this tissue because it is more susceptible because of that anatomy than others.

Hannah Furst:
I like that analogy. I was just thinking when you said tissue paper cardboard. So I was trying to think, Joe, what would the skin on my feet be? Like if your face is cardboard-

Joanna Flemming:
[inaudible 00:17:43].

Hannah Furst:
Oh, like sometimes I feel the bottom of my feet and I'm like, "Wow, the skin it's doesn't feel like skin anymore."

Joanna Flemming:
The human body is just amazing. Now a question that I get a lot on Instagram, probably once a week, at least is what age should we start incorporating an eye product into our skincare routine. Now I know you've mentioned that you're not a big fan of them, but if there's anyone out there that's really wanting to use an eye cream. At what age do you recommend they start using something it's maybe hydrating or that's just going to keep the eye from showing those first signs of aging?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Well, I certainly think habits that we do in our daily life are more important specific eye cream as prevention. And I'm very much all about early intervention is prevention. So if we can preserve our self as far as body mass, regular exercising, good skin quality and using preventative measures, which really is something that you've got to start thinking about from when you're super young in your teens, sun protection, sunglasses, not rubbing the area, staying away from irritants. So the whole attitude towards this, I think is something that we should be thinking about when we're teenagers, because our sun protection measures should be thinking about that because that's one of the biggest external elements that can really damage this tissue and create aging of the area. Then within that comes having a great routine. There's a few things that I say with cleansing once or twice daily, but using things including around the eye area that aren't full of surfactants. They're a substance that makes things foam.

Dr Natasha Cook:
So even if something says soap free and it foams, it's equivalent to soap because circus effects are the same thing, but because they're slightly different chemically, a lot of companies can get away with saying soap free when really, if it's foaming, it really is soap. So you want to stay away from foaming things around the eyes, you want to use gentle cleansing. You want to be really delicate when you pat that area. So you're not dragging on the skin, which could then leads to irritation, inflammation, discoloration, appearance of shadowing, and thinning of that skin increasing.

Dr Natasha Cook:
And then I think moisturizing habits are really important early on. Now whether a person decides that they feel from a psychological point of view and more comfortable in using an eye specific product versus just a really beautiful, good quality moisturize that may double up as an eye cream or night cream and extra hydrating cream. I think the earlier you start the better and as I said, it's much easier to prevent aging and damage and is to rectify it. So that to me is a lifelong journey and I think good education, good habits early on probably 10 years onwards is the way to go.

Joanna Flemming:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I totally agree with you on that one, start as young as possible.

Hannah Furst:
Especially on the sunscreen.

Dr Natasha Cook:
I cannot be an advocate enough of just using good staff that works on your skin and also investing in preventing yourself from the environment. And we know a lot more information about that now that it is beyond sunscreen and sun protection and certain active ingredients to work really well as topical anti-inflammatories, non-oxidants, looking those in your products like your vitamin Cs, your nicotinamide B3. I'm a real advocate of it. A lot of fantastic pioneering Australian research discovered that beyond the fact that it prevents from UV and environmental damage, it also protects your immune system from depletion, from the sun rays, it stops pigment, reduces sensitivity and it rebuilds your barrier function. So it's just something that I think people should be more knowledged up about and start using it early. And also helps acne. So if you are a young person that's worried about aging, that kind of ingredient will have a multitasking effect to be using these skincare.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. We're huge fans of niacin [inaudible 00:21:17] here.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Yeah. And you should supplement [alpram 00:21:19] a 1000 milligrams a day. That's the level of scientific research to show that it actually slows down cellular aging. It reboots the energy system of the cell, which is called the mitochondria, which deteriorates it's a potent antiinflammatory antioxidant. They did a multi international studies showing that oral niacinamide in 1000 milligrams a day reduces the skin cancer rate by over 40%. I mean, that's pretty powerful. So I was pretty much sold on that. I've been taking it a number of years now because I guess the good thing of being a dermatologist and a medical specialist is we gainfully get information before things become main [crosstalk 00:21:59]. So yeah, there's many good reasons to be a fan of niacinamide B3, many.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, I'm going to have to go look for a [crosstalk 00:22:06] I am definitely looking that up.

Hannah Furst:
We touched briefly on dark circles. Can you explain some of the reasons why we get dark circles and why they're hard to resolve with topical products?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Yes, I will. And it all comes down to the cause. So when you think of something as a medical specialist, you always think, "Okay, I see the problem. What's the underlying cause." Because you want to fix the problem. You want to fix the underlying contribution factors plus what's structurally going on. And this is why the topical agents are really limited in this area of medicine. So I like to break it down and thinking as you can have structural issues relating to the underlying bone, in fact development, and then you've got skin changes that can happen. So when we think of structural underlying problems that will give that appearance of hollowness and shadowing, they've got the genetic component. So the way people are born and the way their skeleton forms, I mean, their bone can be hollow under that eyelid area, which means their eyelid area scoops in and they look shadowed and hollow.

Dr Natasha Cook:
And those kinds of people are going to present with "dark circles" in their 20s. They might've had them even in their teens. And then you look at their appearance and that's all genetic and it will obviously also get worse with aging. And then you've got structural changes that are related to the aging process. And what we know about the aging process is we actually get osteoporosis of the face, and we get accelerated osteoporosis in the face in some areas and we get preservation others. For example, you're outer cheekbone tends to stay in place and you don't lose much bone. So that's why cheekbones a lot of famous people who have got beautiful faces, they still maintain a very elegant chiseled cheekbone. But whereas under the eye areas there we get the shadow if you lose bone more rapidly and disproportionately. So then that contributes to the appearance of the dark shadow circle appearing.

Dr Natasha Cook:
On top of that, we lose the overlying fat and then the skin gets thinner and that exacerbates as we get older. So there's our structure. We can have genetic, we're kind of born that way. And so unfortunately we're going to get dark circles and look hollow and look tired and older than we are potentially even in our 20s. And then most people then all get the kind of appearance and we start to thin out there and look more shadowy and look more tired and then get the hallowing because we lose bone, we lose fat and our skin thins with the aging process. Then we look at the skin changes and then the skin changes come down to things like colors. So we can develop pigmentation in that area, which is largely precipitated by one, racial predisposition. So a lot of darker skin types and more prone to developing clusters, a pigment there, or the fact that we go out in the sun and we don't protect and UV stimulates the pigmentation there.

Dr Natasha Cook:
So a cream to have the capacity to break pigment molecules down in that area is going to be really, really difficult. Then we start to get other colors like vessels and increasing vasculature. And the things that create increase in vessels, which then can grip like a darker shadowy appearance is sunlight is a big one and also chronic inflammation. So people who get allergies, reactions to sensitizing products, rubbing and probing the area over a period of time. That's why a lot of people who are topical or extra prone can get that discoloration, shadowy appearance in that zone. So things that reduce inflammation are really important. So if you're thinking about you've got colors in the skin and the skin quality, and then you've got actually structural, underlying loss of supportive tissue, which then gives you the dark circles.

Dr Natasha Cook:
It's very hard to imagine that a topical ingredient could inadvertently remove or grow bone in that area. However, topical products can do certain things that gainfully can help the appearance. They can hydrate the skin, they can reduce inflammation, and they can stabilize the tissue, and they can reduce wrinkled appearance skin that are as a result of dryness and dehydration. And then obviously having very, very well hydrated skin is really important because hydrated skin will always gainfully perform better and be healthier and function better than dry skin.

Dr Natasha Cook:
So base topical product for this area in my book is concealers. They damn well do the job. They don't cause any problem. Because otherwise I do find if you do have significant dark so [inaudible 00:26:13] outside of the inflammatory or the dehydrated kind of cause which your basic topical products will help you with that really you're looking then at treatments. You're looking at treatments to actually dress what is going on in the area? Is it in the skin? Is it lot of fat? Or is it in the bony structure? Does that kind of make sense to you guys?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, totally. I think it's really important for people to have really stick expectations about what topical products can do and what's actually going on under the surface. And on that note, you mentioned fillers. Are there any other options to treat concerns like bags or loss of elasticity or droopy leads? Are there any professional treatments to treat those?

Dr Natasha Cook:
There's amazing treatments. Okay, so we break it down. So if you've got like bags or significant sagging skin, so usually people in the upper eyelid, so we're going away from what we're talking about now is a dark circle [inaudible 00:27:05]. So you were talking about saggy skin. People either be saggers or hollowers. They either get an appearance on the upper eyelid area where they lose volume and they looks very recessed or they get a saggy upper eyelid skin that hangs down. And so that's a surgical procedure. It works extremely well. There's low complications, fantastic result that can last decades. If we've got protruding bags, the best treatment for that. And the lower eyelid area is surgery. It's called a lower blepharoplasty. Nowadays you actually can do it behind the eyelids. You don't actually come in and cut the eyelid skin at all.

Dr Natasha Cook:
You pull the eyelid forward and you reposition the fat back into the orbit, like where it sits around to protect the eyeball. And they tighten up the membrane that gainfully normally supports the fact that to sit back in and they sometimes might pull out a laser to then do a light resurfacing or laser peeling treatment on the overload line skin to finish the result. And then that's the number one go to. Then if you've just gotten you don't have protruding bags coming forward under the eyelid. You've just got a little bit of hollowing because you've always been a bit of a hollow [alarm 00:28:10], fillers can be helpful and fillers could be hyaluronic acid fillers, or it could be your own fat put in the area. Now I personally think your own fat is the best because it's a natural substance integrates better and longterm there's probably less complications, but it's a more expensive procedure. It's less accessible and a bit more difficult to do.

Dr Natasha Cook:
And then lasers can help, let's just say you just look a bit dark and shadowy. And when you look at the skin, what we use is an instrument called a dermatoscope and the dermatoscope magnifies it to tend to a 100 times out. So we can literally see if you've got increase with blood vessels in there. You can literally see you've got increased pigment molecules and what's going on. If you treat the abnormality that's causing the skin discoloration and that's usually using lasers, but again, need to go to an expert with that. And then if you've just got very crepey skin under there, it's complex hence might thin prevention, if you can look off the skin from as early as you can and for as long as you can, that you don't end up needing too much of this, always, I guess, where to start. And then when you start getting problems, get a proper diagnosis, what's actually contributing to the appearance. So then you can get the right modality, whether that'd be surgical or nonsurgical modality to treat younger wrinkles.

Hannah Furst:
And in terms of specific ingredients, we touched on a couple before, but if you had to choose the best ingredients for under eye concerns, what would they be?

Dr Natasha Cook:
Well, I look at it from two ways. I look at one things that bind water and a hydrating and barrier repairing. So if they're your things, your humectants are your moisture binders and your barrier builders. So you just want it for really good moisturizing ingredients. I love old fashioned things like glycerin more fancy ones, a hyaluronic acid. Hyaluronic acid takes the glory, but I have to say glycerin does all the hard work. And then things like Shea butter, medical grade lanolin, cocoglycerides, silicones like dimethicone are great for helping support and preserve better function as well. So you've got your moisture binders, your barrier builders, and then you want to look at reducing inflammation. So your antioxidants, and inflammatories and one on my face obviously is B3 and I said mine because also is extraordinarily has lower tinsy capacity. So you are gainfully not going to get a sensitize. Then my next one would probably be looking at vitamin C.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes. Another one of our favorite ingredients, the old vitamin C. I think we are going to touch on that separately in another episode because it is so in spotlight, I think.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Yeah. That's why we put B3 and the vitamin C in the one serum just to make cut down on clutter, cut down on costs. They're both biologically compatible and you're getting more bang for your buck and they work nicely together. So yeah, they're two of our favorites as well.

Joanna Flemming:
Well, thank you so much, Dr. Natasha Cook from Darlinghurst Dermatology for joining us today. God, is refreshing to hear a different opinion on some-

Hannah Furst:
I know it is.

Joanna Flemming:
Thanks for joining us.

Dr Natasha Cook:
Yes. Thank you very much for having me. It's been a delight.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, that's really just refreshing to hear that Dr. Natasha Cook doesn't believe in eye creams because usually we just hear all one sided opinions.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. And I think it's good to hear a different opinion, but also I have been wondering for two years. And I use the serum onto my eye and I just love that... That was just an easy, quick yes. And I actually liked this is just another opinion, my professional opinion. I sometimes find that the serums that I'm using because they have so active can be really irritating under the eyes.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, that's been my experience as well.

Hannah Furst:
I have been using an eye cream. I've actually been using the what's it called? They look like unicorn teas.

Joanna Flemming:
Opti crystal.

Hannah Furst:
Opti crystal.

Joanna Flemming:
Opti crystal. So I've been using the Murad one and I'm really big on this in telling people that a topical product will not treat all your under eye concerns. And I've been saying that for years, but I've really noticed a difference from the Murad ones. I'm like, "I don't know what is in that, but it's doing something to my dark circles. And I don't know what it is, but it's great." So I'm going to stick to that. I just like having an eye cream.

Hannah Furst:
Same.

Joanna Flemming:
But as Dr. Natasha said, just having a consistent routine is really important and keeping hydrated. So as long as you're keeping that area hydrated, you're good. All right. Product we didn't know we needed, I think we both got interesting ones today, Hannah but I'd like to probably hear yours first.

Hannah Furst:
So it hasn't launched yet on the website, but it is launching on the 2nd of August at Adore Beauty. If you're interested in checking it out, then. It is literally, this is going to be controversial. I reckon I'm going to get some haters on this product. But-

Joanna Flemming:
[inaudible 00:32:56] on this one?

Hannah Furst:
Please don't. My mental health is really at stake. Please don't. So Ladies Sweet is a new brand on a Adore. It's an intimate skincare brand, intimate being the key word. So it is the rejuvenating botanical oil for intimate skin.

Joanna Flemming:
Can I just say something before you talk about this? I'm so surprised you didn't pick the other product in this range.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, but that's because I liked Femfresh. Sorry. I can't help that I liked Femfresh and I'm very committed to Femfresh. And by the way, we don't sell Femfresh on Adore. You can't get it at Chemist Warehouse . You can get at the supermarket at the Lave, Priceline have it as well. Chemist Warehouse get a lot out of me. Milky [inaudible 00:33:49] like seriously Aldi and Chemist Warehouse .

Joanna Flemming:
I don't know how you don't have a deal with Femfresh yet.

Hannah Furst:
I actually can't believe Aldi haven't contacted me. So if you work at Aldi or knows someone that works at Aldi, can you explain to me why they haven't contacted me being the face of their panty liners? All right. So back on to the glow oil. It's a glow below oil. So it's an intimate skin oil. It's rich in plant-based essential fatty acids. It has bacteria fighting properties. So look, I think what this is really good for is that if you've ever waxed your lady parts at home, when you get all the wax buildup on your hair, so these oil, how they like put it after waxing, they use an oil. So these oil is like safety use on the skin below. So it's like moisturizing and it prevents ingrown hairs. If you get laser hair removal, you'll be shaving that area. So if you've got like kind of that irritation or your susceptible to ingrown hairs, this oil is safe to use on your vagina.

Joanna Flemming:
It's on like the outside of your vagina that you don't use inside of your vagina.

Hannah Furst:
No, no. Don't use on the inside. You can use a personal lubricant for that.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes. Good terminology, Hannah.

Hannah Furst:
I'm using all the right words.

Joanna Flemming:
You really are.

Hannah Furst:
But what I really like about it, and this is what's so funny is these seeds, I have like a little Kmart tray. The like got one of those round marble things. What I do is I present my best looking beauty products on my sink, in my bathroom when I have guests so far. And so there's like a fragrance. And then there's like just some nice bottles and jars and whatnot. And of course my glow oil for your vagina is on there too.

Joanna Flemming:
So if they go to the bathroom and they just want to put a bit of something on, they can?

Hannah Furst:
Yep. It's there on the display.

Joanna Flemming:
It's really nice of you.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, it's there on display for whoever want to use.

Joanna Flemming:
I've actually got one of those, but I haven't used it yet.

Hannah Furst:
Well, let us know how you go. I'm going to be using the IPL machine because of course, my appointment got canceled again.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes.

Hannah Furst:
So what is your product, Joe?

Joanna Flemming:
So my product is also a new brand that I'd been using for quite a few weeks before we launched it, but it's brand new. So this brand is called Mr. Bright. And it ties in nicely to our recent episode with the dentist, Dr. Madeline. So I've been using these teeth whitening strips from Mr. Bright, and they are really good. I have used teeth whitening strips before and not seen much of a result, but I have noticed a significant result from using these. You're meant to use them I think 14 days in a row. I haven't been that strict with it. I'm like, "Oh, I did it three days ago. I'm just going to do it again because I forget to do it."

Joanna Flemming:
But they're hydrogen peroxide free. So they are a little bit gentle on the tooth apparently. And they've got glycerin and sodium bicarbonate in there, so that helps to whiten the teeth. And then you've got things like cranberry and Aloe vera and peppermint oil as well. So it tastes really fresh too. And yeah, it really does make a difference to the shade of what I'm noticing. So I'm going to keep using those. I've got another packet ready to go.

Hannah Furst:
Have you done it before and after?

Joanna Flemming:
No. I haven't.

Hannah Furst:
[inaudible 00:37:13] seriously.

Joanna Flemming:
I know I should have done it. I've also got those trays, the light that you put in. I haven't used that one yet because I was using a high smile one. So I'm just going to finish that first so that I'm not wasting product, then I'll try the Mr. Bright one, but in their range, they've also got that. So if you want to try that instead, go for it. But as Madeline said, if you've got the trays that you've actually had fitted to your teeth, you can still use them. Did you get a set as well?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. I've got the home teeth whitening kit. So they've got three syringes. I'm going to try the syringe, but I actually I want to try this mold because it's got like a LED light.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
If you listened to our episode about At Home Teeth Whitening, and you don't know where to start, and you don't want to go to your dentist, and you don't want to splurge on the teeth moles-

Joanna Flemming:
If you don't want to buy it off Amazon-

Hannah Furst:
And you don't want to buy it off Amazon-

Joanna Flemming:
And get them out of [inaudible 00:38:05]. I definitely noticed my teeth are whiter. So if you're looking for something that actually works, I can attest to that.

Hannah Furst:
Now just to outro. So we didn't actually talk about the fact that we're both back in lockdown, hence probably why I've requested that no one troll me for the next six weeks, because I'm just a bit fragile at the moment. And if you're living outside of Victoria, please don't troll us right now, and if you live in Victoria, I understand where you're coming from.

Joanna Flemming:
We understand your frustration and your anger.

Hannah Furst:
But what I do want to read you, I sent my mom a message last night at 11:00 PM. I just wanted to read it out to you because I feel this is like a really good insight into where I'm at right now. And I said, "Do you think I'm paranoid? I feel like I have a UTI now, but maybe because I was thinking about it and now I have to keep peeing???" She wrote back this morning, nine hours later. "Yes, paranoid."

Joanna Flemming:
I love these [inaudible 00:39:05] to text that to your mom.

Hannah Furst:
Yesterday in the afternoon, we were talking about UTI and I was like, "(beep)" And I was like, "Ray, leaving that UTI I had in Canberra." And so then I started eating my head. I was like, "Oh, not."

Joanna Flemming:
You've given yourself a UTI.

Hannah Furst:
I've got a UTI, I've got a UTI. Why do I need to pay?

Joanna Flemming:
What do you have a UTI from there, Hannah?

Hannah Furst:
Absolutely nothing. There's nothing.

Joanna Flemming:
Exactly.

Hannah Furst:
Well, Femfresh.

Joanna Flemming:
Possibly.

Hannah Furst:
Wow. We can stop there now because the episode it has come full circle. I'm done.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. Okay. See you next week guys [inaudible 00:39:43].

Hannah Furst:
Thanks everyone for joining us today.

Joanna Flemming:
Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends. It helps other people to discover us. And also we really want to know what you thought about this podcast. So you can leave us a review. That would be much appreciated.

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