Episode 27: Exfoliation 101

We're back for another episode of Beauty IQ Uncensored, brought to you by Adore Beauty. 

What’s on this episode? We’re glad you asked...

Smelly feet:

Dial a podiatrist! Our fave podiatrist, Sarah, gave us some insight into smelly feet, plus some awesome tips on how to prevent smelly feet from occurring in the first place, like leaving your shoes out in the sun to kill bacteria, using anti-fungal washing detergent, and wearing cotton and wool fibres.

All things exfoliation:

Dermal clinician James Vivian joins us to chat EXFOLIATION, and he does not muck around. We cover physical, chemical and enzymatic exfoliation in detail: what each of them does, who should do what and how you should add exfoliation into your skincare routine.

James shared some of his fave products with us too:

Cosmedix Benefit Clean Gentle Cleanser

Cosmedix Benefit Balance Antioxidant Toner

Cosmedix Reboot Serum

Cosmedix Define Resurfacing Treatment

Cosmedix Hydrate+

You can find James Vivian on Instagram here.

Products we didn't know we needed:

Jo: R+Co Rockaway Sea Salt Spray

Hannah: LELO Beads Noir 2 balls + girdle

Read our disclaimer here.

Credits: 

Hosts: Joanna Fleming & Hannah Furst 

Guest: James Vivian


Dermal clinician, James Vivian joins us to chat all things exfoliation. Plus podiatrist, Sarah discusses smelly feet and how to prevent them.

Beauty IQ Uncensored Episode 27 Transcript - 'Exfoliation 101'

 

Hannah Furst:
This episode contains adult content and sexual references. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome everybody to Beauty IQ the podcast.

Joanna Flemming:
I'm your host Joanna Flemming.

Hannah Furst:
And I am your cohost Hannah Furst.

Joanna Flemming:
And we're back for another week. Should we may re-record our intro? Do you reckon people are getting sick of the [crosstalk 00:00:19].

Hannah Furst:
Well someone messaged me and said, "Hannah, you're not the cohost."

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, you're not.

Hannah Furst:
Because it sounds like I'm like second fiddle to you.

Joanna Flemming:
I think we just said because you were the second person that said your name.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Because it's weird to say "I'm the host Joanna Fleming and I'm the host Hannah Furst".

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, exactly. That's probably why we... Maybe we should re-record it and just be like, "We're your hosts" and speak at the same time.

Hannah Furst:
Actually for people who don't know, this is a bit of background to the podcast. When we first did our intro, we were so robotic.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
Welcome to Beauty IQ. It was really robotic.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. We didn't know what we were doing.

Hannah Furst:
I know.

Joanna Flemming:
We're just regular people trying to make a living.

Hannah Furst:
We discovered that we have this special talent for podcasting.

Joanna Flemming:
Well, debatable.

Hannah Furst:
Although some of you might have a couple of reviews that might disagree with that.

Joanna Flemming:
Okay. So on today's episode we are talking about smelly feet and I mean we've already had our favorite podiatrist Sarah on. And she's calling up a little bit of insight.

Hannah Furst:
Called in a podiatrist.

Joanna Flemming:
And then we are talking about exfoliants and of course our products we didn't know we needed.

Hannah Furst:
And mine's sex edition. I don't have smelly feet unless I wear runners without socks. But I do have sweaty feet. And I bought myself these really bougie designer slides.

Joanna Flemming:
Can we not say Gucci?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah we can say Gucci, I just don't want people to think I'm that bougie.

Joanna Flemming:
You are though.

Hannah Furst:
So I did, I bought them for myself for a Christmas present. And to be honest, cost per wear, I reckon I've worn them 300 times.

Joanna Flemming:
You wear them all the time. Absolutely cost per wear worth it.

Hannah Furst:
The only problem is that the soles, because they're leather, are black. Because my feet get sweaty and then the sweat discolors the leather.

Joanna Flemming:
Because you can't wear socks with them.

Hannah Furst:
No, you can't.

Joanna Flemming:
Because they're backless slides.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, they are.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. So they're not like the loafer, they're the slide.

Hannah Furst:
It'd be weird if you all little socks with your... I get sweaty feet! But yeah, so that's really been my main issue is I get really sweaty feet at the office.

Joanna Flemming:
So I noticed on MAFS recently, Evan sprayed deodorant on his feet.

Hannah Furst:
Don't judge me. I don't watch MAFS.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, that surprises me.

Hannah Furst:
I wanted to apply for MAFS.

Joanna Flemming:
You probably should to be honest, I think you'd get on.

Hannah Furst:
Well I think I'd rather go on The Bachelor.

Joanna Flemming:
Can we start a petition?

Hannah Furst:
If the producers at The Bachelor are watching, Jo and I are totally keen.

Joanna Flemming:
Yep. We'd have to date separate people though.

Hannah Furst:
No, I think they should... Well, how would they?

Joanna Flemming:
Could we do a Bachelorette duo?

Hannah Furst:
Could we be the Bachelorette duo?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, possibly.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, can someone start like a-

Joanna Flemming:
Someone start a petition.

Hannah Furst:
Petition.

Joanna Flemming:
And we're open to it. So I noticed that he sprayed his feet, the bottoms of his feet with deodorant because he didn't wear socks with his shoes to his wedding.

Hannah Furst:
That's actually really smart.

Joanna Flemming:
It's actually a really good idea. And I asked Sarah if that actually works and she said that it can. And you can get foot specific ones, but I don't know. I didn't go that far. But I asked her if antiperspirant deodorants can be used on your feet. And she said, yes, it can help. So he wasn't wrong in doing that, but everyone thought that was wild that he was doing that.

Hannah Furst:
So you have smelly pits. Do you have smelly feet?

Joanna Flemming:
I don't have smelly feet at all. I've never experienced smelly feet.

Hannah Furst:
Yes, you are correct. Chemist Warehouse has foot deodorant.

Joanna Flemming:
There you go, Chemist Warehouse.

Hannah Furst:
Scholl Fresh Step Shoe Spray.

Joanna Flemming:
Okay, cool. Well yeah, you can just use your Rexona or your Clinical Protection if you want to, I think. But you can also wash on your feet-

Hannah Furst:
Roll on your Clinical Protection.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. Rolling it on and slipping around on the bathroom tiles. But you can also wash your feet with a pH balance wash. So you could use your Femfresh on your feet if you wanted to. But also-

Hannah Furst:
I never wash my feet. Do you?

Joanna Flemming:
Ah, no.

Hannah Furst:
I do it like once a month.

Joanna Flemming:
That's actually really good.

Hannah Furst:
I never wash it with soap.

Joanna Flemming:
Does anyone wash their feet?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, now that I think about it, maybe I should be washing my feet.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, me too. I sometimes spray them-

Joanna Flemming:
They get wet in the shower, but I don't put soap on them.

Hannah Furst:
No. Me either. Interesting.

Joanna Flemming:
Are we doing something wrong?

Hannah Furst:
Well-

Joanna Flemming:
DM us if you wash your feet.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Should you not? It's the same as your underarms, like you'd want to get the fungus and sweat off.

Joanna Flemming:
Well, Sarah said if you do have smelly shoes, leave them out in direct sunlight because the UV helps to stop the bacteria growth.

Hannah Furst:
That is such a good tip.

Joanna Flemming:
Yep. And she also said wash socks in a high temperature and use Canesten or Dettol laundry detergent.

Hannah Furst:
Huh?

Joanna Flemming:
I didn't know there was a Canesten laundry detergent, but that's what she said.

Hannah Furst:
Wow. You learn so much. I learn so much on this podcast.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, so I do. And also to wear natural fibers like cotton and wool instead of synthetic.

Hannah Furst:
There is a Can... At Woolworths, Canesten antibacterial and antifungal hygiene laundry.

Joanna Flemming:
We're giving other retailers shout outs here. They're not sponsoring us. Okay. So yeah-

Hannah Furst:
They're like direct competitors.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, exactly. So apparently they're the things that you can do for smelly feet. The Femfresh on your feet, that was not her words, but a pH balance wash. Leave your shoes out in sunlight and maybe we should be washing our feet.

Hannah Furst:
But you can-

Joanna Flemming:
And deodorant.

Hannah Furst:
Literally. I had no idea. But you can wash your socks in this antibacterial, antifungal wash. That's amazing.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, I didn't know that either.

Hannah Furst:
That's incredible.

Joanna Flemming:
That's a really good tip.tipsI love Sarah's tapes. Who else loves Sarah?

Hannah Furst:
Oh, she's so good.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, I love a podiatrist.

Hannah Furst:
She actually got a review just [crosstalk 00:00:05:49].

Joanna Flemming:
I know, just for her. Yeah, she was great. Anyways, so that's Sarah's advice on smelly feet. But we, surprisingly considering we don't wash our feet, we don't actually experience it ourselves.

Hannah Furst:
I have experienced it in like... Well actually, when I was hiking the Camino, that was really... because basically you had to wear wool socks and you walked like 30 kilometers a day in the heat with hiking boots. And also people were getting blisters and they had to get them, the blisters-

Joanna Flemming:
Did you get blisters?

Hannah Furst:
I actually didn't get blisters.

Joanna Flemming:
Wow.

Hannah Furst:
I know.

Joanna Flemming:
That's amazing. Did you wear your shoes in?

Hannah Furst:
I mean a little bit. I wore them on a few hikes but nothing major. And also you can't prepare your feet from walking five kilometers a day to 30 kilometers a day, day after day after day.

Joanna Flemming:
That's amazing that you didn't get blisters.

Hannah Furst:
No, I didn't get any blisters. But other people, if you're susceptible to blisters, were getting like hectic.

Joanna Flemming:
I feel like blisters is a cringy convo. We're going to have to get Sarah back in I think. Blisters will be a good one. How do you get rid of them quickly? Or prevent them?

Hannah Furst:
Well in this case, people were having to get them drained.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, I'm going to look that up later.

Hannah Furst:
I was at the end of my day, drinking a glass of wine out in the sunshine and some guy was next to me getting his blisters drained.

Joanna Flemming:
See that would have been like entertainment for me. I would've been like, woo!

Hannah Furst:
Oh my God, you would have loved it.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah I would've.

Hannah Furst:
I'm sorry, do you mind if I just...

Joanna Flemming:
Do you mind if I sit here and watch?

Hannah Furst:
You would have loved the Camino. Actually, you would've absolutely hated it. Imagine you in bunk beds with like men and women all everywhere. And the men would get up, well not just the men, but you'd hear a lot of farting in the morning, at like five in the morning.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh no, no. I was at a bar yesterday and someone behind us burped.

Hannah Furst:
I'm sorry, you were at a bar on a Monday?

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, no, sorry. It was Sunday. Sunday.

Hannah Furst:
I'm sorry, what have you done with Joanna?

Joanna Flemming:
And he just burped behind us and we were like, oh, that's our cue to leave. I hate burping. Welcome to our next guest, James Vivian is a dermal clinician. And today we're going to be chatting all about exfoliation, aren't we?

James Vivian:
Hi, yes please.

Joanna Flemming:
It's a great topic.

James Vivian:
It's the best.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes, it's one of your favorites Hannah because [crosstalk 00:08:05] exfoliate the shit out of your skin.

Hannah Furst:
It was so red last night.

Joanna Flemming:
So on that note, James, can you tell us why do we need to exfoliate?

James Vivian:
Oh why don't we need to exfoliate? It's so good. It really forms the foundation to what I believe is clear, fresh, bright skin. And that said, look, I'm here to present one side of the argument today because there's lots of practitioners out there that are anti exfoliation. But from my perspective, in my experience, it really helps us to actually get what we're putting on the skin to penetrate. Because at the end of the day, the skin is a waterproof barrier. It's job is to keep things out. And as an industry, we're trying to get stuff in. So by exfoliating suitably, we help to penetrate those active ingredients so we can get a better response from what we're trying to get. And then the second reason is because the surface of the skin really is dead, devitalized, dull, dehydrated cells. So by exfoliating that away, we're exposing what is naturally underneath and that's clearer, fresher, brighter skin.

Joanna Flemming:
So the world of exfoliation is a little bit confusing, I guess for people that are skin care beginners or they're not as well versed in exfoliation as you and I Hannah. So can you explain, there are different types of exfoliants. What are they and why should different people use different exfoliants?

James Vivian:
Good question. It's really, really hard to explain because everyone's skin is very different and everyone's skin's needs an individual approach to the way they're going to or not exfoliate. And sometimes the best form of exfoliation is no exfoliation. If a skin has an impaired barrier, if it's been over exfoliated, if it's had a treatment recently or because it's just got some sort of innate skin sensitivity, rather than exfoliating, you actually need to work on that. You need to feed the skin strength in the skin so it can actually start to exfoliate. And for skins that are stronger and are more receptive to an exfoliation, the three main ones are a scrub, enzymes and chemical exfoliation. And a scrub it sounds like Hannah, that's what you did the other day?

Hannah Furst:
Oh no. I use chemical always. Always.

Joanna Flemming:
I felt like you would have a scrub on rotation.

Hannah Furst:
No, I actually don't touch scrubs. I don't know why.

Joanna Flemming:
Interesting, neither do I. But that's because I'm sensitive.

Hannah Furst:
I have nothing against them. I just love a chemical exfoliant.

James Vivian:
So do I.

Hannah Furst:
It feels like it's not too abrasive. It's like, oh, it's just like [crosstalk 00:10:35] burn, yeah.

James Vivian:
People hear the word chemical and a lot of people automatically think that that's actually going to be bad for you.

Hannah Furst:
The more chemicals the better.

James Vivian:
Sometimes yeah.

Hannah Furst:
I'm naughty. I layer chemical exfoliants and retinol.

James Vivian:
That's all right, well you're curious and it's the industry you're in and that's how I exfoliate. Every night I exfoliate with a combination of alpha hydroxy acid and a little bit of retinol. Because one hand is really washing the other. But the good thing about chemicals for anyone that's thinking, no it's not for me, is that our skin naturally exfoliates itself and chemical exfoliants such as lactic acid and salicylic acid are actually promoting the way that the skin is exfoliating already. So it can sometimes be the most gentle form of exfoliation because even scrubs can be so abrasive. I remember that's where I started exfoliating. I got the Aesop tea tree leaf exfoliant and I would mix it with my cleanser and I would not stop until my face was red raw.

Hannah Furst:
Oh my god.

James Vivian:
If it wasn't red enough, well I'd have to keep going.

Joanna Flemming:
I will say I've used in my youth a coffee scrub on my face. Don't. Are you not meant to do that?

Hannah Furst:
I don't know.

James Vivian:
It's not in the skin's best interest, but there's something also-

Joanna Flemming:
Like rubbing it really hard.

James Vivian:
Yeah. And that's where the ritual comes into it. We can't forget that part of this industry. A lot of it's about getting effective change in the skin, but a lot of it's about the process and enjoying doing it. So probably for my clients that still use a scrub, they just enjoy the process. They've got their chemical or their enzymatic exfoliants but just once a week they're James, I just love it. So I have to keep one on my shelf just for that client. And also for a younger skin too that is exfoliating pretty regularly but still just need a little bit of help, a scrub is good for that age bracket too I think.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, I do agree. Scrubs, just some people just love them. I guess the thing for me is I can't control how hard you're pressing that scrub into your face, so I don't want to be responsible if you are being too abrasive with it.

Hannah Furst:
There are also some physical exfoliants that have very, very-

Joanna Flemming:
Very fine.

Hannah Furst:
Very fine. Like the [crosstalk 00:12:40] really gentle. You wouldn't even know it was a physical exfoliant.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, it's super gentle. Yeah.

James Vivian:
And sometimes it's like, does that even do anything?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
What are you doing?

James Vivian:
For some skins it will. And Joanna, you make a really good point. You can't control the amount of pressure that a client is using when they use that scrub. But also you can't control how much, how many pumps of a chemical exfoliant that the client's going to do. So it could be the best exfoliant for someone, but if they're overusing it and also underusing it. I think a lot of people think that sometimes it's enough to on Adore Beauty and just buy an exfoliant and have it sit on the shelf. They think I'm exfoliating, put it on in the dosage that's recommended. So the third, we've also got as we said, chemical exfoliants and they exfoliate by breaking the bonds that hold the skin cells together. And then enzymatic exfoliants.

Hannah Furst:
I thought that was chemical.

James Vivian:
They're all chemicals really at the end of the day, everything we put on the skin is a chemical. But enzymes are working to digest dead skin cells. They're like little scavenger hunters and they're really concerned with that and that alone. So that's why they're so great for a sensitive skin or really dry skin, because it's pairing back all that visible dry, flaky skin.

Joanna Flemming:
Yep. So an example of that one might be the [crosstalk 00:00:14:03].

Hannah Furst:
I've seen reviews on that.

James Vivian:
That is an amazing product.

Joanna Flemming:
How would someone know what an enzyme exfoliant is? What should they look for? What ingredients?

James Vivian:
They would be looking for papain, which is from papaya or bromelain, which is from pineapple. They're the two main ones that are used in skincare.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. Now we touched a little bit on over exfoliating, so can you expand a little bit on that, particularly for [crosstalk 00:14:26].

Hannah Furst:
Guilty.

Joanna Flemming:
What can happen to the skin if you over exfoliate it and how would you know that you've done that?

James Vivian:
Sure. With active skincare, it's okay for a little bit of tingling, a little bit of sensitivity, to have a little bit of redness coming through. But anything beyond that, any sensations of pain and discomfort or prolonged redness can mean that you've either over done it or that it's just not the right exfoliant for you. Certainly scrubbing your skin to the point where you're as red as a tomato like I used to do, that is not going to be fabulous for the skin. But there can be other reasons why the skin isn't so ready for an exfoliant. That can be because you've had a treatment. I know when you girls had your lactic peels, you were told not to use any exfoliants or anything overly active for five days, so it's really important to follow that advice because we're basically disrupting the skin's natural barrier. We're pairing all of that back and the skin needs to recover. And it will do that itself and it will also do that by using post-treatment products like the Aspect Red-Less for example.

Hannah Furst:
Because I sometimes you use a AHA, BHA, like a gentle cleanser but still active, and then I'll use a chemical exfoliant like a glycolic acid. Is that too much in one night?

James Vivian:
Do you do that every day?

Hannah Furst:
No, no, no, no. I probably only chem, because I like to be fake tanned all the time. I find I don't love chemical exfoliants. Like I do once a week.

James Vivian:
But you're using the cleanser that's got the Has, BHAs in it?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah.

James Vivian:
So generally when a cleanser has those sorts of ingredients in it, it's going to be at a really low percentage because a brand is probably going to want you to use that once daily or twice daily. Whereas a serum is going to be more concentrated. So if your skin is tolerating that, that's fine. But I think innately, you know that you shouldn't do that every day. So you do it on occasion when you feel like it.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, particularly for me, I find if I strip my skin too much, breakouts straight away.

Joanna Flemming:
Correct.

James Vivian:
Yep. And that's a big issue with acne and with breakouts is we all want to be so proactive when we see a pimple or a group of pimples come up. But in being so proactive, we can actually make things worse. That's when we're like, okay, well if this serum is great, then surely twice as much is going to be twice as good. Or my friends told me to use that. Or I've got four exfoliants, I'll use them all.

Joanna Flemming:
Well we learnt that from our biz recently, that when people get a breakout, they just layer on all their actives and hope for the best.

Hannah Furst:
But see, I know I shouldn't and I still do it. That breakout I had here, I was just pouring serum all over it.

Joanna Flemming:
I know. And I kept saying to you, stop!

Hannah Furst:
Every 30 minutes adding more, adding more. You go into like-

Joanna Flemming:
A panic mode.

Hannah Furst:
Crisis mode. Yeah.

James Vivian:
You just try to be as proactive as you can with your limited amount of knowledge and just hope for the best.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. Yep. Which in some cases doesn't always work out in your favor, as you said.

James Vivian:
It quite often doesn't.

Joanna Flemming:
Now you said that you use a glycolic acid with a retinol. Is that right? Did I hear that right?

James Vivian:
I'm not a big advocate for glycolic acid, I much prefer lactic acid as the alpha hydroxy acid. And that's because it has a high therapeutic index. It is not a fine a a molecule is glycolic is, so it's not as dehydrating and potentially irritating. But for oilier skin types, for acneic skin types, it's more appropriate. But for me, I like a lactic mixed with a retinol.

Joanna Flemming:
Right. And you don't find you get any sensitivity with doing that? Did you say you do that every night?

James Vivian:
I do, every night.

Joanna Flemming:
Wow.

James Vivian:
I've been using cosmeceutical skincare for like 15 years now.

Hannah Furst:
You too.

James Vivian:
And what I'm using today is not what I used 15 years ago. It's been such a journey for me. My skin changes, but also with me being in the industry, I'm always trying new things for the benefit of me but also for the benefit of our clients. But I always go back to a nightly alpha hydroxy acid and retinol, but just in a low dose, it's appropriate for my age, it's appropriate for my skin. It doesn't really tingle anymore. Sometimes when I've been in the sun it will tingle a little bit and that's my skin saying I don't like this right now. Because the skin, it tells you what it does and what it doesn't like.

James Vivian:
And so I will use that every night and eventually, in the next couple of years when I notice some more lines or blemishes coming through, I'll step it up to something stronger. But because I know and see the benefits of exfoliation, I think why not each and every night? Because I wake up in the morning, my skin is fresher, it's brighter because of it. It's been resurfaced. And as I said before, it's so much more receptive to all the active ingredients that I put on afterwards.

Joanna Flemming:
And we often ask our guests to share their skin care routine. So on that, tell us what you're using?

James Vivian:
Sure.

Joanna Flemming:
What is the retinol that you're using? What is the lactic acid that you're using?

James Vivian:
So I'm using, because we work in a clinic, we're privy to having brands that are in clinic only, but I think we do share some brands. So I use Benefit Clean by Cosmetics. Do you have that?

Joanna Flemming:
Yes.

James Vivian:
So that's just a foaming cleanser. It's not stripping whatsoever. And my skin just always feels super clean after them. And then I use the accompanying Benefit Balance toner, saturate my skin in that like it's dripping. And then I will just massage that in a little bit. It's high antioxidant strength. And then I use the New Cosmetics Reboot Serum. Have you come across that?

Hannah Furst:
I haven't. Have you?

Joanna Flemming:
Is that an oil? No.

James Vivian:
No. So it's a hydrating serum with probiotics.

Joanna Flemming:
Maybe I haven't. Oh no, I've heard about this.

James Vivian:
It's really good.

Joanna Flemming:
I've heard about it. I haven't tried it.

James Vivian:
What's so fabulous for me is because I'm allergic to hyaluronic acid.

Joanna Flemming:
What!

James Vivian:
I'm the only person that I've ever met or heard of that he's allergic to hyaluronic acid. Like obviously we create natural hyaluronic acids, I'm not allergic to that, but any synthetic form I'll use and my eyes about five days later will just, I'll get a big histamine reaction and I have to stop.

Joanna Flemming:
I'm sorry, that sucks.

Hannah Furst:
That really sucks!

James Vivian:
I know. And Reboot is giving me similar hydrating effects that are hyaluronic acid would.

Joanna Flemming:
Well good for you.

Hannah Furst:
You'd have to really read, because hyaluronic acid's in everything.

James Vivian:
Everything.

Joanna Flemming:
Every skincare product!

James Vivian:
Every moisturizer. If it's not in it, then like what is this moisturizer?

Hannah Furst:
Why would I use you?

James Vivian:
I know. So luckily I'm the only person I've ever met. If there's any more of you out there, get in touch.

Joanna Flemming:
Start a Facebook group!

James Vivian:
We should. So I use that and then I will use, I'm using All Cosmetics at the moment, Hydrate Plus, which is an SPF and moisturizer in one. And that's my day program. And then at nighttime it's the same but I sub out the Reboot for Skin Better Sciences Alpha Red. Do you have Cosmetics Define?

Joanna Flemming:
Yes, I use that.

James Vivian:
So I used to use that before moving onto Skin Better Sciences. It is a phenomenal resurfacing product. Very, very intelligent vitamin A. It's a high concentration but it's wrapped in protein so the irritation factor of it is really, really low.

Joanna Flemming:
Now you mentioned a toner.

James Vivian:
Yes.

Joanna Flemming:
So while we're just chatting about that, you obviously think toners are necessary in a skin care routine?

James Vivian:
No, I don't.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, you just really like it?

Hannah Furst:
You just like, because you like a saturate my face.

James Vivian:
I do personally. I'm never going to expect one of my clients to saturate their face with a toner. So this is just what I do. It's sort of, it's part of my journey from working for Aesop when we used to be really, really generous with products. I started doing it then and I've just never really stopped. We sell one toner at work. It's the Cosmetics Purity Balance and that is for a client that needs that extra resurfacing. They use even a strong cleanser, but there's still an oil buildup. We want to bypass that oil. We want to get the serums and products into the skin. So that's where that serum, sorry that's where that toner is recommended. But for anybody else, I think that if they're going to invest in a step or they're going to invest in a product, it's a serum.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. That's good advice.

Joanna Flemming:
Because I've been finding a lot of brands are dropping their toner. There's a lot of brands that don't have a toner anymore. And it's so interesting because 25 years ago, it was like cleanse, tone and moisturize. And now it's like cleanse, serum moisturize.

Hannah Furst:
Serum serum serum. No no no, serum serum serum. Moisturize.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. SPF.

James Vivian:
So I guess I'm not practicing what I preach there, but it's just something that I really enjoyed doing.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, that's okay, you do you.

James Vivian:
Thank you.

Hannah Furst:
On the glycolic acid, so I love glycolic acid because it's pre event prep for me. Gets my skin glowy and plump. What is it doing?

James Vivian:
So by exfoliating the skin, you're always going to have instantly or ideally instantly brighter skin because you've pared off that layer and it happens pretty instantly. Glycolic acid, lactic acid, salicylic acid, these ingredients have been incorporated into skin care or utilized for skin benefit because they just have this instant-

Hannah Furst:
It's instant, you're right, yeah.

James Vivian:
Affinity with the skin. They stimulate the skin. And even at a microscopic level we're creating, give these exfoliations a little bit of trauma, we get the plumping from it. It's going to resurface the skin so improve the texture. If you have, if you're treating your skin well, if you're feeding it with active ingredients and you're really nourishing it, that skin's underneath so simply by exfoliating it, you're really exposing that pretty quickly.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, because that's why I use the power peel before events. Because it's got retinol, it's got glycolic and retinol and my skin, maybe it is trauma to my skin, but it just feels so plump the next day. A little bit red, but my skin can take it now. But I think at the start it was getting quite red.

Joanna Flemming:
Your skin is like steel now though.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah but retinol still, I still get quite a bad reaction from retinol.

Joanna Flemming:
When you go up a level?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. Yeah. I find retinol, I don't tolerate that as well.

James Vivian:
Do you bring it into the program slowly?

Hannah Furst:
I do.

Joanna Flemming:
What do you think?

Hannah Furst:
I do. What I do is I usually layer things with it and I think I'm like, what is it doing that? So I got a rash the other day, my whole forehead was in a red kind of itchy rash. I think I just did too much.

James Vivian:
Sounds like it.

Hannah Furst:
But I really pushed the boundaries and-

James Vivian:
Guys, don't do what Hannah does.

Hannah Furst:
Don't do... I think they've been listening now for six months. They know don't listen to me.

Joanna Flemming:
She's said some very valid points [crosstalk 00:00:24:34].

Hannah Furst:
I have, I have. I feel like I'm the guineapig on this podcast.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, exactly. You're the one willing to take risks. I'm not.

James Vivian:
There's nothing wrong with that at all, but just as long as you know when to hold back.

Hannah Furst:
Pull back. Yeah, no, I do. Now I do.

Joanna Flemming:
So for those of our listeners that want to find an exfoliant that's right for them, what are your faves?

James Vivian:
A really well tolerated one for many people is the Aspect Exfol L serum and look for chemical exfoliations. I advocate that they're used at nighttime because we're paring back the skin and therefore we're effecting its natural photo protection and so if it's being used during the day, obviously put lots of sunscreen on. But I think it's best at nighttime. You can let the skin recover and then you're good to go in the morning.

Hannah Furst:
Tick for Hannah.

Joanna Flemming:
Yes, good girl. You should always use an SPF during the day anyway. Even if you are using a glycolic at night or an AH at night.

James Vivian:
Yeah, absolutely. And re-applying it regularly throughout the day of course. We mentioned before the Cosmetics Define and that's a combination of their retinol and alpha hydroxy acids and fruit based acids and for those of you not wanting any retinol, they also have Defy, which is the Define without the retinol. So great for pregnancy, breastfeeding or just for when retinol's not appropriate.

Joanna Flemming:
Anything else that you have [crosstalk 00:25:54].

Hannah Furst:
What about a physical exfoliant and who would you recommend actually uses a physical exfoliant?

James Vivian:
Wow, no one.

Hannah Furst:
You're allowed to have that personal opinion.

Joanna Flemming:
Totally.

James Vivian:
But you also need to, from an in-clinic point of view, if someone really wants to use something and it's not inappropriate for them, you still let them. If it's not to their detriment. Because they need to be on board with what you're recommending. If you think they need to use something else, you explain to them why they need to use it and quite often, yes that's enough to get them over the line. But if they really just love their scrub, just get them to use it once a week.

Hannah Furst:
Just not with big hard chunks in it.

James Vivian:
No, and generally companies aren't going to be formulating products that are unsafe for people so much. Would you like to [crosstalk 00:26:46].

Hannah Furst:
You can't, you're not allowed Jo, sorry.

James Vivian:
Not at my clinic and not at Adore Beauty.

Hannah Furst:
As long as you're either one of those places, it's totally fine.

James Vivian:
Absolutely. Don't go anywhere else.

Hannah Furst:
Who would a chemical exfoliant not be appropriate for? If you have super sensitive skin, would that freak out your skin or do you need to start once a week and then build your skin up?

James Vivian:
It's all about the skin being ready for it, so it's kind of like, I love an exercise analogy when it comes to the skin, so it's like exercising on an injury is not advisable. So when your skin is impaired for whatever reason, if it's because you've over exfoliated it or because you just have severely dehydrated dry skin, you've been in the sun for too long, you've been using the wrong skincare, they can be the sorts of signs that are chemical exfoliation is not appropriate for you at this stage, but that doesn't mean that you can't go and spend your time getting the skin ready for it. Doing a prep work and then just bringing it in slowly.

James Vivian:
Why I love chemical exfoliation is because, this is sort of contrary to like a scrub, say for example, that really just scrubs your face and then the job's done. It doesn't do anything beyond that. Chemical exfoliation such as lactic acid activates processes in the skin. So if you're wanting to improve your hydration, lactic acid stimulates natural hyaluronic acid in the skin, which we know is water binding. We know it's hydrating, so that's fabulous. And it also stimulates the natural production of ceramides in the skin. So they're the good oils that help to prevent dehydration. So the fact that you get an exfoliation and then these added benefits is one fantastic reason that we like to chemical exfoliate. And then also we know that they are antibacterial by nature, anti inflammatory, they lighten skin pigment. So anyone with those issues can go for it. But you need to start slow, like at the gym, don't pick up the 50 kilo weight

Hannah Furst:
See I would.

Joanna Flemming:
That's a great analogy by the way.

James Vivian:
You pick up the fives and you just go slowly.

Hannah Furst:
I hurt my back.

James Vivian:
Because yeah, the temptation just to go for it is a big reason why I think a lot of people lose faith in products and also in the industry itself. They hear that, yes, lactic acid's amazing or glycollic, they go and buy it. It didn't work. And they think, oh-

Hannah Furst:
Or they break out straight away in the purge.

James Vivian:
Yeah, and that can happen too. So what I love about Adore Beauty is the chat live function. You get to ask these sorts of questions about why a product might be giving you a reaction or just to know that that's the actual right product for you.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I sometimes get on chat.

James Vivian:
You can call me.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh thank you, I'll keep that in mind. You shouldn't have offered.

Hannah Furst:
One more question was around the eyes. How do you exfoliate under your eyes if you're not allowed to put anything under there? I've always has this question, yeah.

Joanna Flemming:
Good question actually. Yeah.

James Vivian:
Good question. It is different tissue so it needs to be treated differently. It's very, very fine. It doesn't have the same amount of natural oil production around there but it also therefore doesn't, it's not susceptible to the same issues that the rest of the face does, so it's not getting congested. It's not breaking out.

Hannah Furst:
That's true.

James Vivian:
It needs to be more cared for and nurtured and nourished. But that said, I don't tell people not to take their exfoliating serums up towards the eye area once they've ascertained that it is appropriate for their skin generally. And just to be gentle. When you're prescribing skincare it is a double act. So I can tell you what to do, what I think will work with your skin, but you actually take it home and you're the one that tries it. You're the one that sees that it is working and then it's that ongoing conversation. Okay, you've been using that for three times a week now for twice a week. Let's step it up. So with our clinic, we're very big on that followup because it's one thing just to send you home with a product that's active, that's going to ideally change the skin for the better. But because we know that you can overdo it, just because we think it's going to work doesn't necessarily mean it is. So we stay in touch and one of the things we might say is okay, now use it around the eye area.

Joanna Flemming:
Well thank you so much for joining us, James. If anyone listening wants to visit you, where can they find you?

James Vivian:
You can find us at James Vivian, we're in Prahran. Jamesvivian.co.

Joanna Flemming:
And they can also find you on the gram if they want to go and stalk you first.

James Vivian:
You can, JamesVivian_skin.

Joanna Flemming:
Great. Thanks so much. [crosstalk 00:31:19].

James Vivian:
Thanks for having me.

Joanna Flemming:
So my product I didn't know I needed is the R+Co Rockaway Sea Salt spray. So this is my favorite sea salt spray and I've tried a effing lot of them. I love this one because of the spray bottle mainly. I find a lot of sea salt sprays make my hair crunchy. So I actually use my sea salt spray to slick my hair back into a ponytail. And someone asked me the other day, how do I get it? So I think it was Sam actually at work.

Hannah Furst:
And your hair always looks really nice when it's slicked back.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. So I actually use a sea salt spray. I spray it onto a tail comb and then I use that to slick my hair back.

Hannah Furst:
Sorry, what's a tail comb?

Joanna Flemming:
The ones with the tail on it. It's got a long bit at the end and then it's got a comb at the other end.

Hannah Furst:
Yep, yep, yep.

Joanna Flemming:
You know those ones?

Hannah Furst:
Yep.

Joanna Flemming:
So yeah, I spray the spray onto that and then I use that to slick my hair back.

Hannah Furst:
Good tip.

Joanna Flemming:
And it always holds it really well.

Hannah Furst:
Because it's crunchy.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah. But it just, it has a lot of hold in it too. So it just holds it up. I think I find it better than hairspray to be honest. But I like the spray nozzle because if I do spray it directly onto my hair, if I've got side burn bits popping out and I spray it directly on, it doesn't get super crunchy in those spots. Whereas I find other ones I spray onto those bits and it's just like a crunchy bit on the side of my head.

Hannah Furst:
With your styling your hair in waves, when do you use the sea salt spray?

Joanna Flemming:
So I use it, this is kind of weird.

Hannah Furst:
I know, I remember you [crosstalk 00:32:35], yeah.

Joanna Flemming:
So I actually curl my hair and because I curl my hair quite tightly, I'll spray in a sea salt spray once the curls have cooled down and then I brush them out.

Hannah Furst:
That seems counter productive but your hair always looks nice.

Joanna Flemming:
But I don't want my hair too tightly coiled. So to get more of a wave finish and give cold, I spray it once the curls are cooled down and then I brush it out and it gives them a beautiful wave instead of a curl. So yeah, that's my little trick. But you can also use sea salt spray in wet hair and then dry in and it gives it a bit of grit and texture. Yeah. Anyway, you're looking at me like I'm ready [crosstalk 00:33:14].

Hannah Furst:
No, no-

Joanna Flemming:
But I'm ready.

Hannah Furst:
Because I was just thinking that I haven't curled my hair in so long.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah you haven't actually, you've been doing straight.

Hannah Furst:
No, I've been wearing it up in a little bun like today because I CBF.

Joanna Flemming:
Oh, okay. Yeah, fair.

Hannah Furst:
I feel like I've just given up.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, same, don't worry.

Hannah Furst:
Being a woman's hard sometimes.

Joanna Flemming:
It really is.

Hannah Furst:
What I am, I'm saving it up for the weekends and I go all out on the weekends now.

Joanna Flemming:
Fair. All right, time for you.

Hannah Furst:
It's not a vibrator. I'm sorry to disappoint. It's actually the Lelo beads and I don't know how I'm going to describe these, but anyway, they are basically for your kegel muscles. And last night I was cleaning-

Joanna Flemming:
Keg-al or kee-gal?

Hannah Furst:
Kee-gal. Kegel. Is it kegel? I think I got that wrong.

Joanna Flemming:
Should we do another Google translate?

Hannah Furst:
Actually. Yes. kegal pronounce.

Speaker 4:
Keg-al.

Joanna Flemming:
He's saying keg-al!

Hannah Furst:
That's us though.

Joanna Flemming:
I swear Danny said kegal, but-

Hannah Furst:
Kegel, kegal, tomato, tomato. We're accepting of all pronunciations at Adore. So last night, yesterday I literally had an admin day yesterday and I cleaned my entire house. And while I was cleaning I knew we had the podcast today and I was looking around at all the products I was putting away and I was like, I need a product I didn't know I needed. And I came across my Lelo beads [crosstalk 00:34:41]. So they actually look quite scary because you've got to pop them up your vagina. And I was like, oh well I'm cleaning today. And when we did the training with Lelo they were like, you can wear them on dates. I was like, I was just-

Joanna Flemming:
Because they're partly for pelvic floor strength, but partly for sexual reasons as well.

Hannah Furst:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. So therefore tightening the kegal muscles but also I think if you do more of those exercises, you can actually get more intense orgasms. That's what we learned in the training. So I was like, sounds good. I'll give a go.

Joanna Flemming:
I'll give it a whirl.

Hannah Furst:
So you basically, they've got two balls and they're attached to each other with this, it's called a girdle. It's like plastic thing that keeps it, not plastic.

Joanna Flemming:
Silicone.

Hannah Furst:
Silicone, high grade.

Joanna Flemming:
Yep. Hygienic.

Hannah Furst:
Medical grade silicone. So you can basically, you start with one ball and it has a on the end and then you can do two balls.

Joanna Flemming:
Are they the same size? The one that you used.

Hannah Furst:
Yes, these ones are, but there's different ones where you've got different weights, there's different sizes and different weights. We actually should release at the same time, one of the educators from Lelo, we filmed her showing you how to use them. Not actually using them, but like this is the ball you use, this is how you use the girdle. So we might put that up. We'll put that up on stories at the same time as this episode comes out. So I just did one ball. And so you do the ball with the string and you just put a bit of like, it's actually Lelo-

Joanna Flemming:
So you left one out?

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. So you start with one and then you move to two. And if you, I have the black, so I have the noir which is just two balls, but you can also get one with four balls, which has a heavier and a lighter weight.

Joanna Flemming:
And that's the Luna ones I think.

Hannah Furst:
They're the Luna beads. These are beads noir. They're only $59. And when I was younger, to me those exercises were really frustrating because you had to lie on your back and tighten your pelvic floor. And it was just like-

Joanna Flemming:
You can do those exercises sitting at your desk, you just tighten everything.

Hannah Furst:
I would never do that.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, you forget to do it.

Hannah Furst:
Literally. I would never do it. I would never think to do it. And so you literally put the ball up and as you're walking round, I think that you naturally try to keep the balls in. You actually can't feel them. I couldn't feel them.

Joanna Flemming:
They're not big.

Hannah Furst:
You know they're there but you literally, you could just be cleaning the house on a Sunday and you're doing your pelvic floor exercises and you don't even know you're doing it.

Joanna Flemming:
All the reviews said like I've noticed such a difference in my pelvic floor. I went through them the other day when I was looking at the product and there's some really good reviews for pelvic floor strength.

Hannah Furst:
Really?

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah.

Hannah Furst:
The only thing is to use a water-based lubricant to insert them, which I used the Lelo, It's actually called like the Lelo, it's in a beautiful packaging.

Joanna Flemming:
And we know you like beautiful packaging.

Hannah Furst:
It's honestly the nicest lube you've ever seen. Some of the benefits are longer and stronger orgasms.

Joanna Flemming:
Do you know why? Is it because the muscles are stronger?

Hannah Furst:
I actually don't know. I think we need to get an expert on to talk about that [crosstalk 00:37:50]. But I think that's really interesting because it's not just about if you've... So when we were doing training about it, it was like, you only talk about your pelvic floor when you're having a baby. That's the only time that women kind of start talking about it. Because I've never, no one's ever told me about this. I feel like that's something you learn as you get pregnant. But it's actually something that all women can do.

Joanna Flemming:
Yeah, and it doesn't matter if you've given birth to a child or not, carrying a child still affects your pelvic floor.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. And actually the girl that came in and did the training was like, I liked the idea of wearing them on a date. It kind of sounds sexy.

Joanna Flemming:
Are you going to? Don't wear makeup and wear your Lelo ball. There you go.

Hannah Furst:
Oh my god, I still haven't done that makeup free date.

Joanna Flemming:
Now we're just adding onto that experiment.

Hannah Furst:
Sorry, what's the experiment up to? No makeup?

Joanna Flemming:
So no makeup and wearing kegal ball. And we'll add something again in a few weeks time.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah. So every time I don't do it, we make it worse. We make it harder to achieve.

Joanna Flemming:
Exactly.

Hannah Furst:
But yeah, so the only thing with sex category is that because we have that popup on the website to make sure that you're comfortable viewing the products, when you get to the website, it's Adore You, and then you'll see sex on the left hand side and you can view all of the products there, including the Lelo beads. That wasn't really as sexy as I was hoping. I was cleaning the house and I-

Joanna Flemming:
And I'm trying to strengthen my pelvic floor.

Hannah Furst:
Yeah, I was kind of expecting that to be sexier. Anyway.

Joanna Flemming:
Anyway, so yeah, that wraps us up for this week. We'll see you next time.

Hannah Furst:
Thanks everyone for joining us today.

Joanna Flemming:
Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends. It helps other people to discover us, and also we really want to know what you thought about this podcast so if you can leave us a review, that would be much appreciated.